#462 – Inside China’s Amazon Seller Schools: 4,000 Students & One Mission
Join us as we welcome Feng Xiaoxiao, a distinguished leader in the Chinese e-commerce community and a driving force behind 4,000 Amazon sellers in Shenzhen. Known as Professor Xiaoxiao, Feng shares her compelling journey from Shenzhen to New York, where she is currently pursuing a master’s in integrated marketing at NYU. Feng provides insightful perspectives on the hurdles Chinese Amazon sellers face, such as high advertising costs and cultural misunderstandings, which impede their efforts to establish robust brands in the U.S. market. Her dedication to bridging these cultural gaps offers a unique lens into the e-commerce challenges faced by both Chinese and American sellers.
Listen in as we explore the complexities of intellectual property (IP) awareness among Chinese sellers, heightened by Amazon’s strict IP policies. Through education and adaptation, many are now prioritizing innovation and registering patents, although IP infringement remains a significant issue. We discuss the contrasting strengths of American and Chinese sellers, where Americans shine in innovation and branding, and Chinese sellers excel in product enhancement and cost reduction. This episode also touches on the misconceptions Americans may have about modern China and the potential for cross-cultural learning to enhance e-commerce strategies on platforms like Amazon.
In a fascinating conversation about cross-cultural marketing, we dive into the intersection of Chinese and American e-commerce sellers, emphasizing the necessity of mutual learning. Feng shares success stories and highlights the importance of cultural understanding and aesthetic alignment in improving brand appeal. We also discuss strategies for targeting specific U.S. audiences, using tools like Facebook data to find unique market positions. As we wrap up, the discussion turns to the opportunities for collaboration between Chinese and American sellers, aiming to foster fair competition and mutual growth in the competitive landscape of global e-commerce.
In episode 462 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Xiaoxiao discuss:
- 00:00 – Challenges of Chinese Amazon Sellers
- 02:33 – Global Connections Through Technology
- 06:20 – Challenges of Building US Brand
- 14:39 – Chinese Amazon Sellers & IP Infringements
- 19:01 – Cross-Cultural Marketing in E-Commerce
- 22:59 – Cultural Influence on Conversion Rates
- 29:08 – Market Research and Cultural Understanding
- 33:06 – Marketing Strategies and Consumer Data
- 37:25 – Reliability of Academic vs AI Data
- 41:27 – Opportunities for Chinese and American E-Commerce Seller Collaboration
- 48:01 – Amazon Business Owner Seeks Branding Help
- 54:07 – Common Ground Between East and West
Transcript
Kevin King:
Welcome to episode 462 of the AM/PM podcast. This week I’ve got a pretty interesting guest I think a lot of you are going to really enjoy. I’ve got Feng Xiaoxiao from Shenzhen, China. She leads a group of 4,000 students in China and she’s realized that, hey, the Chinese are at a disadvantage. They don’t understand the West and they understand marketing and branding and they can do everything else all the pricing, all the making products different and all the game and ship that comes with Amazon but when it comes to branding and positioning and culture, they’re having a hard time. So she’s actually taken upon herself to come to NYU. When now this interview I did with her, she was back in China for the summer, but she’s about to start her second year at NYU and a master’s program for marketing and she’s trying to learn how to actually help bridge the gap between the West and the East when it comes to culture and marketing and branding. And she’s going to talk about some of the pain points that they’re having and some of the ways that they’re actually solving these pain points. So enjoy this episode with Fang Chuchu, or, as they call her over there, professor Xiaoxiao. So here we go. Enjoy it. I’ve got an awesome guest on the podcast today Feng Xiaoxiao. How are you, how are you doing? Good to see you.
Xiaoxiao:
Hi, hi, Kevin. Um, good to see you. I’m so glad to be here today to be a guest speaker and last time we met in Vegas and today we meet in your podcast. Let’s talk about anything about Amazon sellers.
Kevin King:
Yeah, we’re going to do that. So we met at the Prosper show and I was told that, hey, you got to meet this girl. She’s like very famous in China and everybody knows her and follows her. I was like, oh cool, I’d love to have you on the podcast. And so now we may have. I’m in Austin, you’re in Shenzhen right now, and through the beauty of technology, you know, look, what we can do.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, sure, yeah. Actually for the past 10 years I did. I was an Amazon seller and also I’m a coach in Shenzhen. But very funny story for me is I went to New York last year on 2024. So I’m currently studying in New York University in integrated marketing.
Kevin King:
at NYU?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, NYU.
Kevin King:
So it’s a big shift for your whole life.
Xiaoxiao:
Oh yeah, that’s true, because you know, I’m an Amazon seller. I manage my company, I have 50-plus staff and we’re selling Amazon. We handle all those things. This, you know, Amazon performance team and we’re selling products, we put advertisements, we do everything and I do feel that the price competition is so fierce and I’m going to find some new breakthrough for my selling business and at the same time, I find out that for all my students because I am also teaching in business school in Shenzhen and I have so many students like I have 4,000 students. So the reason why I really changed my whole life I, you know, I let my managers to manage my company and I really immersively study in New York is because I do feel that if we cannot understand American people and American culture, we really cannot sell so well and I really want to do branding. That’s the reason and because I have like 4,000 plus Amazon seller students in Shenzhen, I do feel that they need some people to bring to lead them to do the real branding. So, yeah, I’m in Manhattan right now and I do have some. You know, the learning experience also gives me some inspirations and I do understand why the exact picture in our listing doesn’t have a good conversion.
Kevin King:
So you’re studying. So, if I understand, you came to NYU in Manhattan to study marketing so that you can help your business that has like 50 employees plus all your 4,000 students actually learn how to better market to the Western American audience, correct?
Xiaoxiao:
Yes, that’s true. Yeah, so yeah, actually I prepared a little bit, you know, to elaborate more about my conclusions so we can imagine there is an iceberg. What we can see from the surface is only a small part. So the visible struggles of Chinese Amazon sellers, unaffordable ad costs, and shrinking profits, and the fierce price competition. But under the surface lies the real root of the problem. It’s actually the lack of cultural understanding. And we got no private user base and because all the clients that belongs to Amazon we don’t have our own private users and we don’t wish them to communicate with our users and to really listen to their voice. And also, we are so lacking of offline retail channels, we are so reliant on Amazon. These hidden challenges are the true reason to hold ourselves back from building long-lasting brand in the US market. So I do believe I saw a news report that the American sellers also suffered from Chinese sellers’ low pricing strategy.
Kevin King:
Yeah, so, so, yeah. So what you’re saying, um, is that the Chinese sellers are having difficulty because they don’t understand the culture and how to properly market to the Americans. And then the Americans they say that, oh, the Chinese have an advantage because they speak the language, they can easily talk to the factories, they get better pricing. They don’t. The people don’t. Their workers don’t cost as much. I’m not saying all this is true, I’m just saying this is the. And then a lot of people in their mind, the Chinese sellers cheat, and I think some Chinese sellers definitely cheat, but a lot of Chinese sellers don’t, and they play fair. But the bad ones give everybody a bad reputation, and so that’s unfortunate. But in today’s world I agree with what you’re saying, and that used to be all the Americans like yeah, don’t worry about the Chinese because they don’t know how to market. And now, if you build a real brand, that’s all about marketing, it’s not so much about the price, it’s not so much about some other things you can beat them. And then AI came out, and now I’m assuming that a lot of the Chinese are using AI and that can help you write better listings, better copy, you can ask it questions about the type of customer. And so a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, now the Chinese have, they’re equal to us. Uh, but what you’re saying and I’ve heard this from other people is not so fast. Uh, that’s still, it’s still a problem. Um, so that that’s true?
Xiaoxiao:
Yes, yes, uh. Yeah, it’s really to the point that the risk competition really, you know, have a devastating impact on the entire ecosystem, even though we have AI technology, right, but most of the Chinese sellers, they are still using the low pricing strategy. That’s true. And for Chinese sellers we do have some brands, like you just said, we are doing the fair competition. However, most of the sellers don’t have that sense. But the result is the sellers compete by constantly lowering price. It becomes an inevitable result that the product quality suffers. You know, cutting corners happens, right, so they have no choice. They have to cut corners. They have to sacrifice the quality of the products right. To maintain the margin, because nobody will do free things. So as a result, the whole quality of goods online declines. So, in Manhattan, I really have the feeling that the people who have a good quality of life they prefer to shop offline. They want to look for the products, feel the products offline in the store. And I see I really saw the price. You know, a sofa in an offline shop store in Manhattan it costs at least $500, $1,000. That’s very normal. But in Amazon take a look at the listing $150, you can get a sofa. Yeah, so the result happens right. I don’t think it’s good to Amazon, to the platform itself. I don’t think it’s a good thing. So all the you know-
Kevin King:
Yeah, there’s, there’s some people that don’t care. There’s some people uh, you know, Americans say they just want the low price, they don’t care how long it lasts. But a lot of people they do want, want the quality. And you’re right, um, that it’s a trust thing. Because I me, as a shopper, if I go on Amazon and the brand name is a bunch of letters because a lot of Chinese sellers they use the some weird letters as their brand name immediately I don’t want to buy that product unless it’s something very simple. If it’s maybe a, a knife, you know, for my kitchen, or it’s something simple, uh, for kitchen, a commodity item, then maybe I will buy that. But the nicer stuff I don’t trust it. And I know the Chinese people in China is the same. When you’re going on JD.com or 1688 or whatever, a lot of the Chinese are like, oh, this stuff is uh not very good, I’d rather go and buy it in the store. I want to buy it, uh, off of WeChat, off of a live stream of somebody that that I trust. Yeah, so I know it’s a problem.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah. So, Kevin, you know so good of China, I feel that.
Kevin King:
I, I, I well, I’ve been there, you know, in China. Maybe you were there about seven years ago. I was there with Brandon Young and we spoke at an event and it was very eye-opening to me, just like you. Coming to the US is different, and this event was on a Sunday and there was like 2,500 Chinese sellers there. Some of them were workers of the companies, some of them were the owners, and there’s hardly any events in the US that are that big, maybe one or two, but this was every single Sunday and there were like six speakers and the woman that was hosting was in a nice dress and looked very beautiful and the stage was very nice and I was like holy, holy cow, this is every single Sunday. Um, and uh, I remember I, I did a presentation on how to do postcards, how to reach your customers.
Xiaoxiao:
I was there.
Kevin King:
Um, you, you were talking about that, yeah, on how to do postcards. And I remember, uh, David Wu told me like two or three years later he said, Kevin, now every Chinese seller does postcards because you showed us how to do postcards. But what’s interesting is to me was the Chinese listened to me and they did it and a lot of them had some good success. Some of them not so much, but a lot of them had some good success. But the Americans, when I told them, they’re like, ah no, I just I’m going to do they didn’t pay so much attention. And so it’s like the Chinese are hungry. The Chinese sellers are hungry. They’re willing to work hard, they’re willing to do a lot of things that the American sellers won’t. But I think one of the biggest issues that the American sellers have with the Chinese factories is they don’t respect the trademarks and the IP. And this is a big problem right now in America, where a seller will make a new product and have a new idea and go and get the patent and the trademark and all the IP and then three months later, either the factory or the guy down the street or some other, there’s always all of a sudden 100 other people, mostly Chinese sellers, selling the exact same thing into Amazon, and it’s very frustrating.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
But it’s a cultural difference. I mean, the laws are different and the Chinese don’t see that they’re doing anything wrong versus the American sellers is like what the heck? You’re just stealing this from me. But the Chinese like no, we’re just taking it, making it better or changing it, so that those are. There’s always these little uh things between American Chinese sellers, kind of butting their heads um, um, but. But some of the there’s some very, very, very smart Chinese sellers that do some really amazing things, very good businessmen and women.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, that’s true. I feel that Chinese sellers are really obsessed with all the skills operation, like how to merge listing, how to handle all the reviews and, as you said, to choose products, to select products from what other sellers are selling and do some minor changes and just launch it. But, however, Chinese sellers have a stronger sense of IP infringements in recent years. That’s the lesson taught by Amazon, because Amazon has such a strict you know policies on IP infringement. So, after years of education, Chinese sellers start to be aware of that and to register patents, whatever, and to do something more innovative, because at least some of my students, they are doing so. I advise them to have their own research and design department, to build a team to design their own products and to register patents and to do a fair competition. Yeah.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I agree it’s gotten better, but it’s still a big problem. It’s such a big problem that we have companies now in the United States and lawyers. That’s all they do. All they do is they fight. They help sellers American sellers and European sellers fight mostly Chinese sellers that are infringing on their rights. Sometimes somebody complains that, oh, I have a hijacker or a copy or a counterfeit on my listing. It’s really not, but they just think it is. But there’s cases where I know people that have had their listings shut down in America because of these problems, and it’s an issue that somehow, I agree, Amazon is trying to enforce it more. But because Amazon is so big, it’s difficult. There’s a lot of little holes and little places and there’s some people like you just said. The Chinese sellers like to gain the system, the American sellers. What really motivates them when it comes to Amazon is they love to know how to launch their product. That’s like if I do a webinar or I do a training, how do you launch your product to the first page? They’re like everybody’s there wanting to pay attention. If you show them how to do something with some AI to make their pictures or to do something to save some time and money. They all really really love that and the PPC anything around the PPC they really really love. But American sellers, believe it or not, a lot of them are not good at the marketing. They’re not good at the branding. They’re not good. Maybe they’re better than the Chinese just because they live here and they grew up this way and so they know a little, understand it a little bit more. But I see there’s a massive opportunity on Amazon, even for Western US sellers, to actually make their branding better and I think once the Chinese, like you said, figure out maybe you’re going to learn here at NYU University and some of the branding and you’re going to be exposed to it in the States they’re going to get better at it and they’re going to work harder at it. I think and I think that’s a big opportunity Alibaba is trying to do some of this right now and help bridge this gap.
Kevin King:
Just like if I went to China, a lot of Americans have never been to China. Most Americans have never been to China, so they think of China as 25 years ago. In their head, they see the movies, they think of China as a bunch of people with plows in a field and they have no idea that Shenzhen and Shanghai and Guangzhou and all these cities are more modern than New York. There’s more technology, more modern because they’re newer and it’s the latest stuff, and they don’t realize the strength of the Chinese. I think the American seller is very good at innovation. The American culture is very good. Come up with a new iPhone, or come up with a new some sort of machine, and then I think the Chinese are very, very good at taking that and making it better. It’s the second generation of innovation, like changing it a little bit, figuring out how okay, engineering, how can we make this a little bit cheaper if we change this or we do this or we make this machine. They’re very good at that, and so I think that’s a lot of people don’t quite understand some of the fundamental differences, but it’s interesting. So in your company with 50 employees, is this you selling millions of dollars worth of products, or is it a big company?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, because I have been selling for over 10 years. The time was 2013. I was back from Singapore. I lived in Singapore for eight years. Because of Amazon, I went back to Shenzhen. Okay, so, yeah, so let’s follow from the points that compare the Chinese sellers and Amazon sellers. I do feel like-
Kevin King:
I love your opinion. Yes, I would love-
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, I do feel that two, two kinds of sellers really really need to learn from each other. Like what you said, Shenzhen, Shanghai, is totally different from what American people’s mind, and we are so developed in terms of infrastructure, buildings, and you know the trains, everything, and also the manufacturing, the supply chain. So I think American sellers can come to China to take a look, to really talk to the manufacturing plants and to, you know, to get better products and better price, better supply chain. But for Chinese sellers, the important issue is that we have to really learn American culture to really do branding, do marketing well. So I think this is our topic, I mean the main topics about today. So I’m going to dive deeper. So I’m going to like how to break the, you know, the price competition circle and the sellers must shift from competing on price to competing on values, through branding, through quality, through the user engagement. So let’s step deeper. So my first point is that, due to the lack of understanding of marketing culture, there is a significant gap in marketing tastes and the consumer expectations. So most of the time, our marketing approach, like the A-plus pictures, the videos and even the package box doesn’t resonate with consumers.
Xiaoxiao:
There is a very interesting, very funny example. The day is my digital marketing class, my classmates most of them are from US, local and I were reviewing some Amazon listings for the lighting products, because at the time we were doing the projects for MoMA Design Store and MoMA selling lightings and lamps. So we just said that we just searched some from Amazon to compare the price, the product. So we searched that we searched lamp in Amazon and you know my classmates, they can immediately tell me that wish listing were from Chinese sellers. Why? Because the overall aesthetic, the aesthetic, the feeling. They’re so cluttered and they’re kind of overly dramatic and they’re lacking in visual appeal. They’re totally different from local sellers. So what I was like? I asked my classmates what do you appreciate? What do you like? They told me that they like a more refined minimalist style. With the thoughtful use of negative space, a sense of elevated beauty. So they care about aesthetic beauty. So this you know. So suddenly I understood that the pictures, the aesthetic feelings, really leads to a lower conversion rates. And I recall the time I had a meeting with my staff and we had all the meetings, the weekly meetings, to look at all the data from Amazon to analyze the conversion rates, the click-through rates and the cost and the e-cost. And suddenly in NYU, in Manhattan’s classroom, I found out that’s the reason why the conversion rate is so low. However, I do feel that many Chinese sellers may not even realize this gap exists, so that’s very funny.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I agree with your classmates. I can often tell that it’s a Chinese listing because a lot of times the way things are worded, AI is helping this. But you just look at the words, it’s almost like they call it Chinglish, like a mix of English, and it’s not the proper way. And if you look at the pictures, what they’re emphasizing sometimes in the pictures, or the way that the arrow is pointing at something, that’s a feature of the product, it just looks off and that’s exactly what you’re saying. That’s aesthetics. So I agree that that’s two different things yeah, different cultures. Yeah, I agree.
Xiaoxiao:
So, for the culture wise, I have another example. I have a very positive example. This is also another project for my which class, let me think about it or for my campaign, for my campaign class. You know there’s a brand, the name is Sol de Janeiro, actually it’s. This brand has advertisement in Manhattan subway. So in the subway we saw the advertisements. This brand is so good. They are making use of the culture, because it is famous for its fun and tropic energy, and the iconic brand’s products is the Brazilian bonbon cream. So you can search if you have interest in these brands. And this brand is so good. They are making use of the Brazilian culture. They are using the culture to cultivate the whole brand and they are doing so well. In the year of let me see. In the year of 2021, it was acquired by the L’Occitane Group. And let me check about the sales. In the year of 2023, they achieved 267 million. Oh, that’s the growth rates. So for the 2024, for the year of 2024, their sales surpassed 2023 and achieved 686 million euro dollar. That’s huge. That’s really a legend. You know the case for branding, because the SKU is so little, they only have like less than 50 SKUs. However, they achieved such a big volume of sales. That’s all because of its brand positioning and how they market, how they brand their products and they’re selling so damn expensive. Yeah yeah, we can. It’s available in Sephora, in all the Sephora across US, and it’s so expensive and it’s selling so well and it’s just a very good, very, you know, like a magic case study in the whole skincare industry. So that’s a good example of making use of the culture, things to do, marketing to do branding. So I yeah.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I agree.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah. So the first point is culture things. Learn more about marketing culture and to increase the aesthetic taste.
Kevin King:
How do you do that? How do you teach the Chinese? How are you going to teach your students? Now that you came to New York and you’ll be back for the next semester? But now that you’re learning this, how do you teach them how to do this? So now you understand. You just explained to me what the difference is. How do they actually learn that? Do they watch movies? Do they use AI? Do they come visit America? Do you hire an American company to help you? How do you actually make that step to fix this problem that you just explained?
Xiaoxiao:
Okay, very good question.
Kevin King:
So the Chinese seller?
Xiaoxiao:
Kevin, you are really a good host. You have really good questions.
Kevin King:
Thank you, thank you.
Xiaoxiao:
So, firstly, before I came to US, before I came to Manhattan, I already am aware of this issue. So I’m a private coach. I am leading nine big seller companies. I have meetings weekly with the leaders. So for some of the companies, I do repositioning for them.
Kevin King:
Okay.
Xiaoxiao:
We have conversations and I guide them how to do consumer insights, how to really match your products to some culture issues, to some culture points that really can help you to do marketing. Let me think about some example. Okay-
Kevin King:
It’s usually pain points and solutions are the two things you really want to focus on are two of the big ones for getting American people to buy, and then those are two of the biggest. There’s others, but those are two big ones. But go ahead with how you’re teaching it.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, actually for positioning wise. I can’t teach them is, it’s delivered by my private coach. So, for example, one of my classmates. They are selling stuff related with toys, with you know the fluffy toys and I’m sure that you must know that the Labubu is so popular right now in the US, right, Labubu?
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Xiaoxiao:
So three years ago one of my students is selling those kind of toys. Of course it’s definitely different from Labubu. She so cares about IP things so we do different things. So I coached her to build a team, to build a research and design team. That team consists of three people and I trained the three people how to do research in US market and to find out the you know the sense, the trend of the certain target audience. So, firstly, we have a target audience, we don’t do mass market. Secondly, we investigate and do research among those target audience. We know what they like and what they care and we use that information to the product development. So she did so well. Her GMV doubled every year, even though in such a bad environment the competition is so fierce. But she still had the growth. She did it.
Kevin King:
So how did you do this? So, what you just said is right, but did you use tools? Did you use some databases? Did you look at some magazines or watch some videos? How did you give figure out how to know what you just told me? To tell her what to do, what? What was the process was? Was it, um, what was what was the? What was the problem? Just so I can understand, like, where is, how can we help? Or like how can, uh, where’s the opportunity here for the people listening? Maybe from China they’re listening to this, uh, and or maybe the people from America they might learn something too, um, so, because it could go, what you’re doing, maybe it goes the other way. Maybe an American person wants to sell in China, so maybe some of your techniques they can use to learn. How does a Chinese? I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking can you be a little bit more specific? Just give me you don’t have to give me all your secrets, but just like one example of something like, okay, we took this brand with the girl with the plush toys that was very careful with her IP, and you said they doubled her sale or GMB. All right, this is how we figured out who her ideal customer is. We did these three things. Can you give me an example of something like that?
Xiaoxiao:
Sure, okay I may start from very common tools that maybe every one of you can use, which is very useful. That is the Facebook data. Facebook is the first social media that’s really track all the demographic and psychographic info of people. So so, uh, you know the Zuckerberg also faced some lawsuits, right, because he tracked all the information yeah.
Kevin King:
Yeah, so you can. So when you say that, does that mean because Facebook, you can see the advertising, so you can see all the ads of someone that’s advertising? Do you go and like, find a, a similar product and like, oh, this is how they’re doing all their advertising on Facebook. Oh, this one is running for three months. It must be good, because they keep spending money, so let’s put this one over here. This is maybe one of the ideas we should study. And here’s another one. Is that kind of what you’re saying? Kind of like that?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Kevin, you’re so professional. Yeah, you know all the tactics, but my method is like we are more looking at the demographic and psychographic data and we try to avoid doing the same thing with other competitors. We try to find the white market and to contribute all our resources and focus on the market which has the battle out to win. And yes, that’s the first tool. Another tool is-
Kevin King:
So that means you’re running ads on Facebook testing. You’re running some ads to get some of that data, to see the positioning, you could run ads, try this one, try this one, try this one, try this one. Maybe you get some of the customers to actually go to a landing page and give you some information so you can get some of their data and like, oh look, they all drive this kind of car and they all have three kids. Is it something similar, similar to that?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, correct, that’s exactly that’s. That’s good, that’s smart, that’s smart, that’s very smart. Yeah, but before that, the I mean the deeper, deeper root is like we have to know the culture and to know the life of American people. Just share with you something that I never think about it when I was in Shenzhen. I don’t know that marijuana is legal and is so popular in some states in America.
Kevin King:
Marijuana, marijuana.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, I’m sorry. Yeah, and that’s really a shock for me the first time I worked on the Manhattan street. I feel something.
Kevin King:
You smelled something strange and you felt a little headache?
Xiaoxiao:
What was that? That’s my classmate and told me oh it’s.
Kevin King:
That’s funny.
Xiaoxiao:
You cannot imagine that when you’re in China, right yeah, you can. Yeah, sometimes it was like a joke with my classmates, like if you do the thing in China, you will immediately be sentenced to jail.
Kevin King:
Yeah, take away your subway card, you lose some points. Yeah, that’s funny.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, and you know there are some brands that are selling the things really so good. They catch the aesthetic taste of Gen Z and they do the rebranding, the design of the packages and design of the products. The marijuana is so cute and beautiful. I mean the products. But I didn’t do that. Okay, I swear I didn’t do that.
Kevin King:
I believe you, I believe you.
Xiaoxiao:
All right. So yeah, that’s a good example of really know the life and culture of American people. That’s kind of a special case right for the marijuana, but I can see that for just now. The case I mentioned, the Sol de Janeiro, is another case like understanding the culture issues, because some of most because I don’t have the data now so I cannot quote you a percentage, but I can tell that the Brazilian culture is so popular, it’s so popular in US. The fun and tropical energy issue the tropical energy pattern, the vibes is so popular.
Kevin King:
The tropic?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, tropic energy vibe, tropical vibe of products.
Kevin King:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, like the island vibe or the. Yeah, yeah, is that what you mean?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin King:
Yeah, yeah, so like yeah, because that’s a lot of Americans, that’s their favorite vacation is go to somewhere that’s a tropical. It’s almost that’s a paradise to them, that’s like a dream to go and lay on the beach and go where it’s very good weather all the time and they can drink and have fun, and so, yeah, that’s a big appeal.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah. So back to the question ask me how to get the data. After I came to NYU, I find another good database is our library, as my professor told me that NYU spends like $60 million in building our library, so I do have access to many valuable data, which is really different from the markets, because I went to the Adweek show last year and there are so many AI tools available in the markets but after I compared the data, I can tell that they’re so different. The data in the market are so simple and not really comprehensive and to the point, and I also have doubts on the accuracy of the data that’s for our library. I think all the university has their own database. I can tell that the data from experiments, research, are more reliable.
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, so I use NYU database to look at that also demographic, psychographic and the consumer trends, all the things from-
Kevin King:
The problem, you get. You made a good point. I want to just I want to just stop you just for a second because I want to make sure people understood what you just said. You said that the data and I agree with you that a $60 million library that has books and microfilms and special computers and showing all this research from maybe NYU or MIT or other scientists, where there’s actually proven stuff, versus all these AI tools that you said you saw at the Adweek show are kind of cool, but you’re like I don’t know if I can trust this, and I think that’s an important point is because the AI tools are picking up everything that’s on the internet and there’s a lot of bad information that people think is the right information. Maybe someone taught a training course and they said, oh, you should always put uh, never use an arrow, uh in your picture. That goes to the right, because that always makes the brain do this. You should always use the one that comes down.
Kevin King:
That’s actually false. They just said that because their friend said that and somebody else said that and maybe they heard it on some crazy radio show, and so then it becomes the truth and then the AI picks that up and it says okay, a lot of people are talking about this, it must be the truth, and so that’s what it gives you, versus the studies that you’re seeing in the library are scientific studies of people that are studying this, that are very smart and in environments that are controlled, and so the information is much more reliable and credible. I mean, there are some studies you have to be careful, because what is the? Who is paying for the study? Maybe they have an interest to make sure there’s a certain result that comes from it, because you can skew data. But that’s a very important point. I want to make sure everybody picked up on that. You just said that’s very, very good. So I’m sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to make sure that was understood.
Xiaoxiao:
Exactly. Yeah, Kevin, you have a good understanding of all the data issues. That’s true. I remember there is a brand I know the name is Resonate or something. Yeah, I do feel maybe this brand is the company that’s really doing seriously these AI tools for sellers to do audience insights, to do research. However, yeah so, just as my professor told me, we have to be careful of the resource and the method, how the data comes out. Yeah, so, okay, so for cultural issues and we can sum up here. Another topic I want to talk about is the retail network, so do we have time to do that or we can do another?
Kevin King:
Sure, yes, of course, no, of course. Let’s do it.
Xiaoxiao:
Okay, so this is really a big issue for Chinese sellers because Chinese sellers are so reliant on Amazon. One company may have 10, 20 Amazon accounts. This is not a secret, right?
Kevin King:
Yeah, that’s not a secret. Some of them have 50 or 100 or more.
Xiaoxiao:
Okay, all right.
Kevin King:
One is very clean and then they play all the rules and some of the other ones not so much. Uh, so, yeah, no, I, I know that happens quite a bit with some of the sellers, um, but other sellers they have, like you said, a lot of legitimate accounts too. But go ahead, I’m sorry.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah. So the lack of offline retail network is a critical weakness for many Chinese sellers. But, um, you know, in the US roughly 70 percent of the product selling happens in offline. So a success, yeah, so all the successful brands, whatever, whatever brand I saw in Manhattan were you know from, because I went to California, Vegas and Miami. I saw some brands that are also available in retail chain shops. For example, leading CPG brands will enter Whole Foods for food products and Sephora, Ulta for beauty products, and in Costco they are home products and furnitures. So most of the Chinese sellers, they lack the experience to navigate offline retail and they are also too consumed, too engaged, you know. Start with managing Amazon’s constantly shifting policies and operational issues.
Kevin King:
There might be a couple of reasons. Maybe you’re going to talk about them here in a second. But if you’re not a brand, a true brand back to your original point it’s very difficult to get retail in the US. And then also, you said, back to your other point, that you said earlier a lot of Chinese sellers are very good at cutting the costs. Let’s make it cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, like you said, the couch, that’s $150, that falls apart, versus the $500. The stores don’t want that, and so they shy away from that quite a bit. And so those are two of the. And it’s harder to do gaming. Not gaming like you’re going to play your Xbox, but to like a lot of the Chinese sellers, like you said you said it too they look at the numbers and look at the reports. And how can I do this and how can I get this keyword in this? That’s much more difficult to do in a retail environment. So there is data and you know there’s things, but you can’t. You lose some of the control. And so if you and it also takes more money because you get paid slower, it takes longer to get things in.
Xiaoxiao:
True.
Kevin King:
So it’s a whole other business model. So that I just want to make sure. Those are some of the very obvious reasons. But go ahead, please continue. You’ve got some great insights. So what else is happening in the retail that makes it difficult for the Chinese?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah. So I went to Whole Foods every two to three days to buy my grocery. So I do find out so many brands are doing so well. They are visible in the whole food, and I sometimes I check their background. I find out it’s only a five-year company and because they have followers, they have some social media buzz, um and they have their clear brand positioning and they’re doing sort of good in sales and marketing and finally they got a chance to go into Whole Foods so do branding and to do a fair competition and really export opportunities in offline retail chain shop. That will lead to an easier life for Chinese sellers. So for the last part of this conversation, because just now Kevin also asked me what do I do, I think, for Chinese sellers? I will continue my consultancy company to help them to really do branding in US markets. So I’m recruiting, I’m recruiting US local professionals to join my team. So if you are listening to Kevin’s podcast and you are like digital marketer, content creator, whatever positions right, you can contact with me and join my team because I really have.
Xiaoxiao:
I sure I filter good Chinese sellers, the they are doing so well in installing and there is the opportunity for them to move forward to the next step, to do branding, and we will use all the local professionals to help the sellers. That’s one thing and for another thing is for American sellers, we may have some opportunities like I’m not sure whether Kevin will be interested I think we can have some joint events like bring your market sellers to really visit China and to get better sources to get the supply chain and to have a conversation with Chinese sellers to learn from each other and to enforce a fair competition environment. I think that’s the valuable things that we can look forward to. And for my contact information, if Kevin mentioned just now, I use XiaoXiaoFeng. Xiao, x-i-a-o, x-i-a-o, Feng is my surname in LinkedIn. You can contact with me through LinkedIn, work through Kevin, where I really appreciate this opportunity to be here today and I’m glad to have another or following conversation, if Kevin interested. Yeah.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I would definitely love to talk again. I think exactly what you said. The branding opportunity is huge. And just to illustrate a point of what you’re saying, I do an event here in the US called Market Masters and at the very first Market Masters I had a woman fly from Shenzhen. She owns an Amazon business in Shenzhen. She makes razors. I don’t know if some people here in the US maybe you haven’t heard of it. It’s called Manscape and it’s a razor for men to trim their hair on their body, in their private parts, on their back, on their chest, and she has a product that she made that’s similar and she made it better. It’s a really good product. She’s got IP on it. But she is doing $70 million a year on Amazon and she’s having trouble with the branding.
Kevin King:
So she came to my Market Masters event. She flew from Shenzhen to the event and she sat in the hot seat where we had all these experts like analyzing her business. It wasn’t a presentations, it wasn’t like a conference like you went to in Vegas. It was people analyzing her business and telling her and she, when she sat down, she’s like I need to know how to do marketing and branding. I have no idea and it turns out that she had hired a company in the United States to help her with this and she was paying them like a crazy amount of money, like even the other experts were like, why are you paying this company $50,000 to do this thing? She’s like, well, I don’t know who to talk to, I don’t know what to do and I’m desperate because I know this is a problem and I need to fix it. So she was getting taken advantage of.
Kevin King:
So I think there’s some opportunity there for and there’s Chinese sellers that have the money and have the capacity and the desire to actually learn. But then you look at some. The problem is I’m fine with that because I’m I’ve been, I’m an international person, but a lot of Americans who have not traveled very much, they’re very much USA flag, USA, USA. You look at what Trump is doing with the tariffs and a lot of people don’t understand. He keeps saying back in. You know earlier this year when he was saying, well, we’re going to bring all the jobs back to America, we’re going to bring the manufacturing back to America, I’m like, no, you’re not. That’s not going to happen. Maybe a couple cases here and there. I’m not going to say there’s not some. Some might happen, but the vast majority of China is just too good at it. They’re very, very good at that, but they’re not as good at the marketing and the branding as we are.
Kevin King:
So if we could figure out how to work together, I think it would be good. But some of the Americans are going to see that the good old we call them here the good old boys they’re like the guys that are just all American. They drive a big pickup truck and they got a gun in the back and they’re just all American culture. They’re going to say that’s sleeping with the enemy. You might, why are you going and helping our enemy do that? And I don’t look at it. I don’t look at it that way. But that’s a, that’s a cultural thing that we have to overcome. That might be a little bit of a challenge in some cases, but I think the opportunity to work together is stronger and to help each other out, and especially if there’s advantages to both sides. Like you said, there could be advantages to both sides where you guys can help us learn some things and we can help you learn some things, and I think that’s a better way to move forward.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, that’s true, exactly. Yeah, you have really good understanding of other situations in terms of economic markets and even politics. Yeah, we try to avoid the topics of politics, but it seems like it’s inevitable, it happens, it’s here, so yeah, so just sometimes we can wait for a while and just look forward to the bigger opportunities to work together.
Kevin King:
So you’re coming back to NYU to continue. Are you getting a master’s in marketing? Is that what you’re doing or is it a special program that you’re a branding program?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
Is it a two-year program or how long is the program?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, it’s a two-year master program, so I will finish my study on next year May. I already completed half of the classes, yeah.
Kevin King:
Okay, and how do you feel that this has helped you immensely? Like a lot. This has really really helped you a lot in understanding?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, it’s definitely a milestone for my whole life of doing marketing and branding and it seems like how to say really opens a new window for me and I’m so, you know, I have a peaceful mind and I know how to direct my company to and I know how to coach my students and, yeah, it’s helped me a lot.
Kevin King:
So when you come back to Shenzhen, to all your friends I know you’re back there for the summer are all your friends going? Hey, we got to get together. You got to tell us all the secrets. What are we going to do? Come on, tell us, tell us, tell us. Are you, are you seeing that happen? Are your students like what’s the secret? Now that you’ve been in America, you saw everything. Are you getting that kind of thing?
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, my students are like asking me oh, Xiaoxiao, where are you? Xiaoxiao, teacher Xiao. They are calling me teacher Xiaoxiao.
Kevin King:
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Well, hey, uh, teacher Xiaoxiao, I really appreciate you coming on. Uh, on the AM/PM podcast. This has been fun. We’ll have to after you, after you’ve gone through a little bit more on the branding, in the next year of class, we’ll have to bring you back and say okay, now, what is the secret? What do we got? What? What, what do you got? How are the Chinese gonna now do branding and marketing much better? And you’re like I got all the answers, cause now I have a master’s from NYU, so it’s going to. It’s going to be great. But I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on today.
Xiaoxiao:
Yeah, I really appreciate your the opportunity to have a conversation with you and, yeah, it’s so fun and happy thank you so much, Kevin.
Kevin King:
Thank you.
Kevin King:
No matter your political stance or what your views are on, uh, democracy or communism, or Trump versus China’s president or anything like that, I think you can see that we’re still common people at the base. The guys in the weeds down here are very, very similar and I think we can benefit each other instead of arguing with each other and fighting it. But it takes an understanding and that’s the problem, like I said in the in this episode, that a lot of Americans don’t fully understand. If you’ve been to China, you’ve got a night a pretty good idea you’ve been to the Canton Fair, you’ve been over there to visit your factories, or even as a tourist to some of the bigger cities, you have a better understanding. But that’s a very small percentage and it goes the other way. A lot of Chinese have come to the United States to study primarily, and a lot of them ended up staying, but still not in massive tourism, and so a better understanding of the two. I think we can benefit each other where we can teach them a few things and they can teach us a few things, and I think that’s going to be a more harmonious society and world for e-commerce sellers going forward.
Kevin King:
So I hope you got something out of this and it gave you some different perspective and enlightened you a little bit on the differences between the US selling which is basically very similar to Europe or Australia and the Asian mindset and the problems that they’re having. We’ll be back again next week with another awesome episode of the AM/PM Podcast. Might even be talking a little bit more sourcing and someone else that’s got a ton of experience in China and it’s going to bring a whole different perspective to everything. So I hope you have a great week. Remember this episode comes out every single Thursday a new episode of the AM/PM podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe button here on YouTube or on Apple podcast or Spotify or wherever you’re listening to this, and sign up to the Billion Dollar Sellers newsletter, billiondollarsellers.com. It’s totally free. It’s in English, but you can translate it. Every Monday and Thursday, a brand new edition comes out that’ll help you in your journey of selling in e-commerce. Take care, and we’ll see you all again next week.
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