#469 – Why 90% of Sellers Are Missing the Real AI Gold Rush
Join us for an engaging discussion as we welcome back Norm Farrar, the first-ever repeat guest on the AM/PM podcast under Kevin King. Norm shares his fascinating journey into the world of influencer marketing, shedding light on the hard work and strategic workflows that come with it. He opens up about the challenges he faced in tracking commissions and the newfound respect he gained for content creators. We also explore how Norm’s innovative use of technology, like Zapier, helped streamline the process of creating engaging content, from scripting to filming, providing valuable insights for aspiring influencers and marketers alike.
As the conversation unfolds, we dive into the cultural significance of cigar smoking as a communal activity. Norm shares personal experiences from cigar lounges, highlighting how they serve as unique environments for stress relief, networking, and building friendships across diverse backgrounds. We reflect on numerous occasions where cigars have facilitated connections at various events, including Amazon gatherings, fostering an inclusive “brotherhood” or “sisterhood” for all participants. Upcoming events, such as the one planned in Tampa, are mentioned as further opportunities to strengthen these connections.
Additionally, the episode explores the evolving landscape of e-commerce and retail, emphasizing the importance of being an early adopter and maintaining a strong omni-channel presence. We discuss the opportunities beyond Amazon, including platforms like Walmart and TikTok shops, and the critical role of brand perception and packaging when transitioning to retail. Listen in as we highlight the enduring power of email marketing, debunking myths about its obsolescence and showcasing the strategic use of AI to enhance targeting and personalization. Whether you’re an aspiring influencer, an e-commerce professional, or simply curious about the future of marketing, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical advice.
In episode 469 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Norm discuss:
- 00:00 – Influencer Marketing and AI Workflow
- 08:35 – Product Promotion Success Story
- 12:16 – The Bonding Power of Cigars
- 16:46 – Amazon Networking Events and Bondings
- 21:10 – Networking Events and Industry Education
- 24:17 – Networking and Education in Amazon
- 30:19 – Utilizing Customer Questions for Marketing
- 32:22 – The Future of E-Commerce and Retail
- 40:35 – Maximizing Email Marketing Impact
- 41:42 – The Power of Email Newsletters
- 48:03 – Email Marketing and AI Optimization
- 50:46 – Generational Shift in Consumer Preferences
- 53:43 – Marketing Misfits Podcast
Transcript
Kevin King:
Welcome to episode 469 of the AM/PM podcast. This week I’ve got my buddy, Norm Farrar, on the show. We’re going to be talking about all the changes that have been happening in the last several years, including what’s going on in AI, the advantage of going to events, his experience with trying to be an influencer and what you should be thinking about if you’re dealing with influencers, as well as an under looked thing that a lot of sellers just aren’t doing that they should be doing. Enjoy this episode. Norm Farrar. Welcome back to the AM/PM podcast. How are you doing?
Norm:
Yeah, you know what. This is number two.
Kevin King:
Yeah, you were on about three years ago I guess, and I don’t know if you know this or not, but you’re the very first guest I’ve had repeat.
Norm:
Wow, an honor. That $30 went quite a long way.
Kevin King:
And either that or I’m a super desperate. One or the other.
Norm:
It might be the desperate.
Kevin King:
What have you been up to man? What’s going on out there?
Norm:
There’s so many things happening right now, uh, with the AEO side, with just authority side, like talking about press release. I’m sure we’re going to get into that again, but there’s just so many things that, uh, we’re old school marketing that’s coming all the way back and all the new things that are happening.
Kevin King:
So uh, so like three years ago, when you had you on, I think you were you were managing some clients.
Norm:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
You, I think maybe you were like I don’t remember if that’s when it was or not, but you’re like I’m going to do this Amazon live, I’m going to sell a hundred things or something or a hundred thousand dollars or I forget what it was, and uh, but you still doing any of that stuff?
Norm:
You know that it was a hundred thousand follower challenge.
Kevin King:
Okay, that’s okay.
Norm:
And what I found out. So, we were doing podcasts at that point, three times a week and I wanted to do something. So, it was either going to be doing a million-dollar product challenge or, at the time, which was really hot, was the influencers. So I thought, okay, I got a beard, I can do it. Well, you know, it turned out to be really hard work and we were doing okay. Like there was months we were making four or $5,000, you know, maybe even more in certain months. But what I found myself, what I thought was going to be okay, was oh, you know, I had a system down, products would come in, I’d have my scripts ready. I’d do them all on a Saturday.
Norm:
Well, one of the things that leads kind of to today is I set up a workflow that I didn’t realize how powerful it would be and it did allow me to do a lot of streamlining with the influencer products that I was doing live. But we got the product to come in. Once the person signed off on the product, we had it automatically as a trigger. It automatically went up to our spreadsheet, we got their link. We summarized the link. The summarized link would go over to a script that we created for TikTok. It would take it, break it into 15 seconds, three 15 seconds scripts, three 30 seconds scripts, do the same thing with reels, do the same thing with everything, and then at the end of the day, I would have like a sheet that I’d have to do for the product and then a sheet for the other product, and what we would do is we would prompt it, you know, saying what are the benefits? We’d show the competition, we’d show their product, and I really didn’t realize it.
Norm:
But at the time it really wasn’t ChatGPT, it wasn’t even really around at that point. And that’s what it turned out to be. It was kind of our AI workflow that we had created in Zapier to get this to all work, and it went really smooth. The problem was this is a long story, you know, a long-winded story, but at the end of it, it was a hard work. If I wanted to do that full time, I could make a lot of money, but I didn’t want to make a lot of money, but I didn’t want to make a lot of money. It just took way too much work, way too much effort and we were doing commission. We’re trying to figure out what’s the best way that we could do this to be fair to the client, which was we’ll do this for free, but if we sell anything we get 15 points or something like that. It was just really hard to track you know-
Kevin King:
Did you have a new appreciation for creators and influencers?
Norm:
A hundred percent. So anybody who’s trying to do it and they think it’s easy. Well, you know, if you’re, if you’re smart or if you’re great looking, if you’ve got, you got to have something different. And I did think, you know, Kevin, I thought I had a beard and I thought that was my USP, and when I was doing a lot of this stuff with Amazon, with one certain platform, all I would do is show my beard. I wouldn’t show my face, I would just talk about. Nobody saw my face and that actually, actually, you know, I’ve still seen those kind of kicking around which I thought was kind of fun. But, um, yeah, I really do have a lot of respect and it to do it right it does take time. They don’t have to be polished, but they’ve got to look unpolished. But you’ve got to get the message across and that’s the talent.
Kevin King:
Let’s flip that now. So, after you being on the receiving end of people shipping you their product and people asking you to promote it, what do you see that people can take away from that? People listening like, hey, when you reach out to an influencer, don’t do this, by all God, do this, this and this, but what are some do’s and don’ts that you appreciated when people would send you stuff?
Norm:
Well, what I didn’t appreciate was blanket emails. So, you know, I don’t need feminine hygiene products. You know, don’t send me anything for that, I don’t need it. You know, cosmetics I don’t need it. Take a look at what I’m selling. So, you know, oh, somebody’s actually taking, I’m a bald headed, big beard guy. Well, send me some beard oil. That would be that start. I’d take a look at that. But one thing that was, um, that I think we could take away from this is that all these blanket just. If you blanket somebody and just like a blanket email, you’re not going to get results. If you take the time to at least take a look at what the person’s selling or their style of selling, then that’s a big bonus. If you like some of their content, that’s a big bonus. And this is the biggest thing. If you think a creator is just going to do it for the product, you’re wrong. Really bad creators are going to do it for free product. There has to be compensation. You have to and the other thing that I didn’t like, and I saw not so much with me, but I saw it with some other creators I was interviewing is that people took their creative and put it all over their other channels.
Norm:
So, for example, you might do an Amazon Live or you might be doing something on TikTok. All of a sudden it shows up in Instagram or over on YouTube. That’s not fair. And people that intentionally do it. That’s just unethical. But that’s the one pet peeve that I really hated that people think that, oh you know, I can just take all this creative and put it somewhere else. You know, like with any of my other social media. But the people that were clear and the people that took time to take a look at what I did and maybe followed, that was great, you know, and I’d appreciate that. For the most part, I took a look at product that I wasn’t big enough, that it would just be, you know, stacked up in my inbox. But I would take a look at everything that came in and if the stuff looked like it was just on a form letter or a form email, I would just put it in the trash.
Kevin King:
What’s like one of the weirdest things and one of the coolest things that you did?
Norm:
Uh, let’s see. One of the coolest things I did was this purifier. It’s a hydrogenator, I think it was called. It injected hydrogen or oxygen into water and I sold a ton of them. I couldn’t believe it. Like Kelsey comes, he goes oh, you just made 5,000 bucks. I’m going. What? On this really cool, it’s called Purify, and um-
Kevin King:
So it’s like a water bottle, but it has a little thing on the bottom.
Norm:
No, it’s, if you kind of think, of a blender.
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Norm:
So yeah, and you put a quart of water in and then it starts to bubble and then there’s this vortex that starts to happen and starts turning different colors. But, um, it sold itself. Uh, that was probably one of the coolest things. Other things that I liked, uh, was just some of the cosmetic things. So, one of the ladies and I said that you know, don’t send me cosmetics. But one of the fun things I did is I started to learn a lot about cosmetics and the different step process, which really helped me with my product opportunities I saw that there was huge opportunities for just putting different types of cosmetics or supplements together and I’d have people come on and they would, you know, show me how to put on this makeup. And I thought it was kind of funny because I’m putting on makeup and my, you know, my, my, uh, my moisturizing cream, and but the funniest one I think I had, um, and we still have the masks, are those red light masks. So I was working with two very large companies that you would, you would know right now, and I got, like, I have a suit of red light therapy. You know I have it for my knees, I have it for my ankles, I have it for my arms, my hips, you know my back, my face, and Connie, you know she has her set and we still use it today. So that was a lot of fun and just looking like I go. Sometimes all you need is a quick visual and to go on to TikTok with one of these masks and start talking just kind of normally start selling-
Kevin King:
Yeah the beard coming out from the mask.
Norm:
That’s it, you know.
Kevin King:
Something else that’s happened, I guess, along the way since I talked to you last was. You’re now what? What do they call it? You’re like a sommelier for cigars. You got like some. You’re like one of only like a handful of people in Canada. You said like 30 or something.
Norm:
No, five.
Kevin King:
Five people in Canada that are like official what’s the correct term for it?
Norm:
They are called certified cigar sommelier tobacconist.
Kevin King:
So what does that mean? That means you know a ton of stuff about cigars.
Norm:
A little. Yeah, just a little.
Kevin King:
So-
Norm:
You know we actually, one of the first times we met, uh was over a cigar. It wasn’t the first time, but you remember, in Hawaii we sat on the beach and we started having a cigar.
Kevin King:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kept having to move the chairs back.
Norm:
Yeah, because the tide was coming in right. But cigars is something like people right now. Some of them will be listening and going, oh, oh, my God, cringe. No way cigars bad, taboo. It’s also something that’s very social, so and I’m not going to get into it. But cigarette tobacco and cigar tobacco are two different things and we can debate that all day long. But what it does and you’ve been with me in these environments where you go in and you’re either smoking a cigar or you go into a cigar lounge and you could talk about anything and sometimes that comes up and what this was, and I don’t want to get into politics or anything like that, but there was a time when you could be on one side of the fence and the other side of the fence and have a talk without hitting the other person. And I find that when you go into one of these lounges or when we meet up with a group of people, sometimes that happens and there’s never been a fight, there’s never been somebody walking away. It’s kind of like just a fraternity. You know we call it brothers of the leaf and it is a true fraternity it’s. You know you sit there and not just men. There’s a lot of women that are also getting more involved with this cigar culture and I love it. I can sit down. You know I go outside, I sit down for an hour and a half, collect my thoughts, come back, do my work, and it’s kind of just like a ritual.
Kevin King:
Some people associate cigars with, like, having a baby and celebrating, or you know something from the movies where it’s the mafia guy. It’s always got one hanging on his mouth.
Norm:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
Or it’s some successful businessmen. You know they have the cigars and a little thing of whiskey over in the side, but it goes way beyond that, doesn’t it?
Norm:
Sure, it’s a whole, it’s part of like, it’s a social, cultural. I don’t want to say I don’t. It’s just a part of society that if you get into the cigar world it’s a whole other world. It’s not just, oh, we’re going to go, somebody had a baby, it’s for celebration. Sure, that’s definitely a part where most people have their first cigar and throw up once or twice. But when you get into it it’s kind of sitting down, you’re enjoying it. This is something that’s taken six, ten years to make. 300 people have touched it. It’s. You know I’m all sterile, but uh, you know you’re looking at this perfectly rolling cigar and then you have this whiskey that’s you know might be aged and if you do it correctly, if you smoke it correctly and you enjoy it, then you, you sit down and you watch.
Norm:
I’ve seen people completely stressed out. I’m sure you have too, but I’ve gone into lounges and I’m just there by myself having a cigar and I can remember one time in particular. I was drinking at the time, so I had my drink and I had my cigar and I was just sitting down relaxing and this guy was completely stressed out, came in, he got a drink, he got a cigar and it was like soon as he sat down in these big plush chairs in the cigar lounges. He sat down, he almost saw the stress go right off his back and in fact we ended up talking and nothing about what he was stressed out about. But we were talking about something else and that’s what I love about it is you can take somebody that’s in the worst like having a terrible day sit down, have a cigar, talk to people. We’ve done it many times, or how many times have strangers come up to us? We’re sitting there having a cigar together at an event.
Kevin King:
Yeah, we met some I met through smoking cigars. I met some met, like-
Norm:
Dan.
Kevin King:
Dan and several people I mean I could probably list off a bunch of people that I’ve met because of smoking cigars because it’s an instant fraternity, it’s an instant um brotherhood or sisterhood, right away, and it’s calming. It’s not like drinking alcohol, where you’re getting progressively worse and worse and you don’t know what you’re going to say and you’re mumbling and stumbling. Cigars, yeah, a good heavy cigar can give you a buzz, but it’s a different kind of thing. It’s a chill. You’re doing something because you’re smoking, so you’re not getting bored as you’re talking. There’s something, something to it. I mean, how many Amazon events have we been to? What’s that one in Chicago where we’re like-
Norm:
Oh yeah.
Kevin King:
We’re going on this balcony and anybody meet us, and we had 20, 25 people out there, some of them smoking, some not some on the sellers cruise.
Norm:
Yeah, that was the one, I think, where there’s about thirty people all gathered around and, again, some smoking, some not, and I mean, if you don’t want to have the smoke, um, then you know. Fine, and most of the time too, if you’re outside, even better, because then the winds just sit the opposite way the winds are blowing.
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Norm:
Um, but uh I find that-
Kevin King:
A lot of billion-dollar seller summit too. Remember, we’re all out there on that balcony.
Norm:
On the Driscoll.
Kevin King:
Yeah, so there’s a lot of Amazon sellers. Uh, we’ll enjoy a cigar from time to time and enjoy that bonding.
Norm:
Take a look who was there, by the way, there were. So if you just started selling and you went to that, uh, BDSS and this happens, you know, to any major event but the guys that are out there, oh you know, they were all. If you take a look at it now, what I would call all tier one either sellers or service providers and what a great way to network.
Kevin King:
Yeah, it is. It is a great way to network and it’s a yeah it. And we did it at Hawaii too. Remember we set up that tent and it was kind of raining at the BDSS in Hawaii. That was crazy. But that’s why you know, you and I are doing an event in November in Tampa, which a lot of people don’t realize. Tampa is the cigar capital of the world. It’s not Miami, it’s not Cuba, where a lot of people think it is, it’s actually Tampa and that culture there. It surprised me. We went to check it all out and kind of do the whole weekend that we’re going to be providing everybody. We went there and I think I told you I was like man, when you come to Austin, there’s a barbecue place on every corner and we’re known for our barbecue. You come to Tampa; there’s a cigar lounge on every corner. You know, in Austin we have I don’t know three cigar lounges, four cigar lounges for a city about the same size as Tampa. They have one on every corner. They must have 50 of them there, including, like the number one in the world, in an old church. And so you and I decided that hey, let’s set up a weekend for people. It doesn’t have to be an Amazon seller, it can be anybody, it can be your friend, it can be anybody, and that’s just. No presentations, no stress, just three days of a handful of people and 20 people or so, going to about 10 different cigar bars doing a cigar cruise.
Norm:
The museum.
Kevin King:
Learning how to roll cigars, seeing the history of it. Uh, if any of you’re interested in that, um, there might be a spot or two left. It’s collectivemindssociety.com. Collectiveminds with an S society.com. You can check that out and maybe even join us. What else are we doing at that?
Norm:
Well, hopefully we’ll do the cigar tasting. I’m not talking about eating it, but it’s the nodes. So I’m trying to see if we can get that set up. We’re going to the museum, which is so interesting. We went there, we explored it, but what I learned is that you don’t have to go very far. You don’t have to fly 90 miles from Key West to go to Cuba. There is an official. Like Cuba, there’s a piece of land in Tampa that’s owned by Cuba.
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Norm:
That was so cool. I had no clue that existed.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I didn’t know that existed either. But what is it about these events like this? You know the Collective Mind Society event that we’re doing. There’s no talks or presentations, but you still that you’re bonding with other successful people and as you’re sitting there smoking a cigar for a couple hours, you never know what’s going to come out. Hey, have you tried this AI tool? Have you done this or that? What is it about events? I mean, at the time of this recording, you’re flying off to an event. Yeah, I just went to Accelerate in September and I spoke at a couple other events. And what is it about going to events? There’s a lot of people listening to this that don’t really go to events, so maybe they go to one per year. They’ve been to one in three years. Why should sellers get out and go to a couple or a handful of events a year?
Norm:
Well, I think it’s really important. You know like-minded people, they get together and you become part of the network. So you know you always heard birds of a feather flock together. But the other thing is everybody who goes to one of these events, you know it could be one that’s $49 or it could be one that’s $5,000, but you’re putting your own money in to learn and to become educated and while you’re at this event, the person next to you or the person to the other side of you, they’re doing the exact same thing. And I know just from the times I’ve gone to events. I get to network with people and I go out. If they’re having a networking lunch, we’ll go. And, Kevin, we’ve done this before. We’ve gone to a podcast event and we didn’t know anybody and then by the time we left, we knew like a hundred people and we got names and numbers of people in the industry to help us with either services that we needed, um, but it’s just the ability to get in there, understand your industry better, but also the education. The education part is so important. The networking part is even more important. And I’ll tell you another thing If you go to an event, that you have this going on If you go to an event, that you have this going on sometimes. We went to a high-end event in Paris in some 9th century castle and where we really we learned a lot from the event itself.
Norm:
But sitting around that fire having a drink or smoking a cigar and just sitting there telling stories and maybe the odd thing about Amazon might come up or e-commerce. And I’m telling you, the nuggets like that we picked up from some of the people that were out there were crazy. But you’re breaking bread with people, you’re smoking, you’re, you’re laughing, and that’s completely different than seeing somebody on stage or just talking to the person next to you. And uh, that’s why, uh, when you get a chance to do this, make sure you go to the networking events, make sure you go out to dinner, get a few people together, go out to like, if you’re in Vegas, go to a Cirque du Soleil show, do whatever, but get to know people. And that’s when things will start to click.
Kevin King:
Well, a lot of people will say, well, yeah, this sounds great, Norm, but that costs money. I got to fly there. Even if I’m in the States, I’m going to fly from Atlanta to Vegas. You know that’s going to cost me 400 bucks, and three or 400 bucks for a hotel for a few nights If I’m not staying in the nicest place, and some more for food and Ubers, my time and my ticket to go to the event. Depending on what it costs, I’m in this several thousand bucks. I just don’t have several thousand bucks right now to do this. I’m just going to watch some stuff on YouTube or watch one of these seller summits that are free.
Norm:
You get what you pay for. That’s one thing, and you know you don’t know who the person is if you’re just watching on YouTube, you know. And usually if you’re on a webinar, uh, the free stuff that you get, you get some tips, you know, usually some good tips, but there’s usually something that you got to buy at the end and you’re not going to get something for nothing. You know, it’s just a fact of life and I I’ll tell you. When I first got into Amazon, uh, I went in, I went to the ASM event, which I bought the course from Jason Fladlin, and then they had an event and it wasn’t cheap. It was, I think, 9,000 bucks and it was in Mallorca. But everybody that I met in Mallorca, I did a mind map on this and I put everything back. And after Mallorca, one week after Mallorca, I knew these guys. They’re called Helium 10. And there was a guy there, Kevin King. I wrote him and I said, hey, can I get this discount? No, so I had to pay full price to go out to Cancun, and so I put everything together. It cost me 40 grand for everything for my hotels, my meals, so everything together for those two weeks, but I probably made in excess of seven figures over a three-year period from the people that I got to know and we weren’t great friends back then, but you know, belonging into the forums, going to other events, really getting to know more people, but getting to know the top of the top, anybody who’s going to put $9,000 or $10,000, yours was, I think, $8,400, I think.
Kevin King:
Yeah, something like that.
Norm:
Yeah, something like that, but you still had to get there. There was a lot of costs involved, but I got to know just tons of people Dima was there, Tomer Rabinovich, Ezra Firestone, like all the top of the top.
Kevin King:
Yeah. That’s why I tell people like the Helium 10 Elite workshops. Those of you listening that are Helium 10 Elite members go to the quarterly workshops. I mean, don’t just do the stuff online, but actually go to the quarterly workshops as well. There was just one just recently before Accelerate, and every three months they do another one, sometimes in Europe even. So, try to get out to those as much as you can. But hey, besides the event stuff, what do you see is the biggest change that’s happened in the last couple of years from a seller’s point of view? You have tariffs that are putting a squeeze on a lot of people. You have Chinese sellers the more and more of them coming in and kind of like, if you don’t have a big moat around your product, it’s harder. The aggregator wave is gone to make that quick, easy money and exit. I see a lot of sellers out there kind of freaking out and crying and I’ve had other leaders from other groups and stuff reach out to me. Hey, you kind of seen this in your communities too and I’m like, yeah, what do you see is big? That’s changing and scaring people and what they should be paying attention to in the selling world.
Norm:
Well, what’s new is old and what’s old is new. That’s the thing. Back in the day, if you wanted to start a business, you’d have to invest a quarter million dollars into property stock, putting everything together just before your launch. Today I still look at it. Maybe it’s because I’m older, but I saw what it was back then and I see what it’s like right now and I still get excited that people can still make it. But if it’s a quick buck, well you might have that odd home run but it takes work. And I was thinking about people making that quick million just before the aggregator boom. But you remember we’d go and we’d see all these young guys and they’d made their million and it was their first million and they weren’t quite humble, they were a little cocky and they didn’t have to do anything and it just kind of fell in their hands. Well, it’s not like that. You got to build that brand. You got to figure out what’s working. You got to go with the trends too, because we know right now um, authority, you know what’s happening with Google. You have to be an authority and you have to learn what they’re picking up on.
Norm:
So you got to be up on what’s happening with the SEO, with AEO, and we talk about that all the time. But even press releases now you know, we found that that, like I’ve been in press releases 15 years, I don’t know I’ve used maybe even longer, and I’ve always used them, but it’s come back so strong, especially now when you put out a press release. This is one way that you can get into the LLMs, if it’s done properly. And the LLMs in case you don’t know, these are, this is like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude Gemini, and I showed you the other day. I called you and I said, look, I just did this for a brand and within five hours we were the number one keyword that came up in all of the LLMs and it was shocking. But it’s just taking control, becoming the authority. We’ve talked about something that Dennis Yu taught us a little while ago about Google Knowledge Panel and how important it is to have that spider web of people with Google Knowledge Graph.
Norm:
Google Business Profile is still huge. So if you tie all these together and you tie in a few press releases, and you are the authority. So with Google Knowledge Panel I’ll just go back to that for a second. Super easy to get as long as you’re an authority of something. So, if you have a social media following, if you have some sort of service, if you have a brand, you can go in and apply for Google Knowledge Panel and you’ll have to get verified. You’ll have to take a picture with your passport and send it in. It takes about two to five days. And if Google says you’re verified, you’re verified and now you’re shown as an authority. Your panels are shown differently in the search engines when somebody searches your name. So there’s a lot of different things going on Kev and just in AEO, we’re just starting to hear about this. And how can you be seen, how can you be shown in the people always ask or where are they getting their information? Well, you know agencies are good for that. You can do it yourself.
Norm:
But you know, going to Reddit, going to Quorum doing here’s another one that, Dennis, you said and I don’t see a lot of people doing. Go into the people always ask, see what those questions are and just keep digging into those questions. Those are all the questions people are asking. Take a one-minute 30-second to one minute video every day and publish that and guess what? You’re going to start getting ranking and authority because you’re answering questions that people are asking and you can get that information free. Very little research by just going to people, always ask and digging down. Isn’t that cool?
Kevin King:
That is cool. Yeah, that’s an easy technique that any product seller can do. You can take them off of Amazon, you can take them off of answerthepublic.com. You can take them off of a lot of places. Well, a lot of people, though, are saying this AI, or AEO, or GEO, or whatever you want to call it stuff.
Norm:
EIO.
Kevin King:
EIO, EEO, whatever they’re all saying. This sounds great, but you know what? I don’t think that many people are doing that right now. I’m going to stick with what I’ve been doing and there is some truth to that the foundational stuff of making sure your listings optimize, making sure the keyboards are there, making sure all this stuff. You still got to do that, but at the same time, there’s another layer you can put on top of that that optimizes you for the AI, the Rufuses, the Cosmos, the outside stuff. What are you seeing people doing around that? if anything.
Norm:
Well, first of all, for people that think, oh, it’s too early, there’s a group of us and that might make up 10% of sellers. It might make up 15%, but we’re the innovators. We will take the chance and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. We’ll probably pay a little bit more and then everybody will also follow. But guess what? The innovators were the ones that went to Amazon back in 2012 and 2013. And when everybody else came in, they were already there. They were in Amazon. They were rock solid as long as they kept-
Kevin King:
Had their review mode going and everything.
Norm:
Exactly, exactly. So. As long as they had, like you said, the foundation, they could build on it and everybody had to eat their dust. And that’s what we’re doing right now those people who are getting and laying the foundation in the LLMs becoming the authority doing everything that you need to stay ahead of the game. It’ll be so much easier and we know it’s going to be easier. Take a look at technology. You know the old computers. I remember this when you had to install and you have a batch and a config file and you had to figure out not to slow down your computer, what would be first and what would be second, third, fourth, fifth. Then in 1995, windows came out with plug and play. You just plugged it in and it made it that much simpler. And will that come? Probably. But right now there’s a lot of things that are going on that we got to do manually and we’re going to. I don’t know about you, Kev, but I think I know you’re not going to stop at just kind of just getting out there. You’re going to get in with two feet and you’re going to be the innovator.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I agree with you. I think right now is the opportunity when it comes to whether it’s on Amazon or off Amazon to get positioned, get that early positioning in AI and kind of ride that wave. And it’s not going to be any easier than it is now to get that positioning. It’s only going to get harder and harder, just like Amazon became harder and harder to actually sell on. And then I think also, what do you think about? You know, there’s a lot of people listening to this. They’re probably just Amazon sellers, and that used to be. Everybody said, oh, just focus on Amazon, that’s what the aggregators want. They just want ASINs. But now you talk to some of the aggregators that are still around, they’re like, no, we want well-rounded companies, we want brands. So what? Where should people be looking besides Amazon? Should they be looking at Walmart? Should they be looking at TikTok shops? Should they be looking at Shopify? What? What should be their next steps if they started on Amazon and they’re trying to be more omni-channel?
Norm:
Well, that’s it Omni-channel. I remember the day where, if you were omni-channel, aggregators, brokers, none of them were looking at any of that, except for Amazon. If it was Amazon-focused, that’s where you made your money. There wasn’t an extra zero for anything else. Now you have to be omni-channel, and it’s crazy if you’re not, because you still can wake up one day and all of a sudden you know you’re suspended for something. So, yes, Amazon for sure, it’s a great channel. But before even going into Amazon, you know, when you’re building your brand, you want to think about a few things, and I’m one. I’m not afraid of Chinese competition. I always said to you about perception. I’ve always believed in perception. This goes back way before this, when I was doing a lot of other businesses outside of e-commerce. It’s all perception. You can get a lot more money just by doing your packaging differently, or when they open up their packaging, how it’s perceived. Like I call it unveiling the product. But that’s one thing is just making sure that your packaging is good. Now, if you’re ever decided that you wanted to go into retail, you want to take a look at your brand and retail packaging. Maybe you could do that for Amazon as well.
Norm:
A lot of the times, people choose to go into retail and they find out oh, I got a problem, I don’t have my brand retail ready. Now I got a problem. And that’s something to talk to your packaging people for. You can still have it on Amazon, it still goes out in the same box, but you just make a few differences, like a different configuration, maybe, maybe you, you, maybe you have it where there’s certain information on the outside, or it could be a hang tag, or it could be something that will allow you to go right into retail. But also the catalog. You know, very simple catalog, very simple to do. So Retail I think is one of the areas that people are overlooking, and it doesn’t have to be huge. You don’t have to worry about cash flow. You can start out with mom and pops and there’s apps out there that’ll find it. Apollo is one of them. There’s Anybiz. There’s a lot of companies out there, apps that you can choose and find out these mom and pop stores in your local area. We all have them. So you start there and if you’re selling beauty products or pet products, they’ll buy a case and they’re going to pay you up front. That’s the starting point.
Norm:
Maybe you hire somebody to go out and call a hundred of these and see what they do. Maybe you go out and visit them in the surrounding areas on a Saturday or Sunday, so that’s something you could start with. But Walmart’s doing good. Walmart now with their AI Sparky I think it’s called. They’ve been struggling and always in the eating Amazon’s dust, but they’re trying their best, and we’ve got TikTok shop and there’s a lot of different platforms that are coming. I don’t think that these are the three that in three years are going to be the only three out there that we’ve got I said this about Walmart years ago is that somebody is going to come up and compete against them. I didn’t know how they were so huge. Like I think there’s a Walmart what every 16 miles or something.
Kevin King:
Yeah, yeah.
Norm:
Something like that.
Kevin King:
Yeah.
Norm:
And all of a sudden there’s Amazon.
Kevin King:
There’s a Walmart. Yeah, within range of every person, within six. Yeah.
Norm:
Yeah. So now, with Amazon out there, who’s going to be that new player? You know I and I can’t tell you that, but I got to keep the radar up. So, TikTok shop, if you have the right product. Walmart marketplace uh, Amazon, of course. Take a look at retail. Take a look at the local shopkeepers and if you do get into some of the larger retailers, there’s lots of things you can do to help with your cash flow, like factoring, for example. But don’t be afraid to take a look at retail. It’s a great opportunity.
Kevin King:
What about some people that say they’re following this AI stuff? And you hear all this stuff about agentic AI and you have the, the, some of these browsers Dia and Cosmo from perplexity and some of these others and that are doing the shopping for you and it’s all agentic and it’s agentic shopping. And it’s like go, hey, go search through my emails, see what shoe these last pair of comfortable shoes I bought and go find me the best price out there. And it goes through your emails, says yep, your size 12 and a half, you like this and this, this is what you paid last time and it goes and finds it and even orders it, perhaps on your case, on your behalf, and so you’re not actually going to the site to actually look and peruse or shop around or window shop. What do you think’s happening in there? Do you think that’s going to be something that grows and grows and grows and right now it’s very small but do you think that’s something that’s going to catch on and to where you’re going to see a shift in maybe 30, 40% of the people are actually going and window shopping and looking around. The other 60% of the buys, especially for commodity type of stuff, are just robots.
Norm:
Yeah, I don’t know when it’s going to roll out. I’m sure it will roll out and it’ll catch on fairly quick because the generation that’s coming up, they’re going to be used to this right. But here’s the trick with that is that, as a brand, how are you going to get their attention? How are you going to like it’s the AEO, it’s? How are you going to get noticed by perplexity? So, perplexity has the opportunity to show you as a brand you know, or any of these. Like how is your company, how is your brand going to get recognized by perplexity? And you can see right now they have an affiliate program going right. So, you show up on Perplexity and guess what? They’re getting an affiliate.
Kevin King:
And ChatGPT is doing that too. They’re going to have some advertising and stuff in there. That’s coming as well.
Norm:
So, brands have to know or agencies have to know, and there’s so many crappy SEO agencies. I would probably say the high majority 80% are crap. They don’t know anything. They know old techniques that don’t work nowadays. But if you get a company that’s on the cutting edge with SEO, that’s doing things right, then you got a winner. And that’s the same thing with moving forward with all of the AEO that we’re talking about and just getting into the different LLMs. It’s important.
Kevin King:
Well, another thing that I think a lot of sellers overlook and you and I see this is email. I know, when I started my newsletter a couple of years ago, the billion-dollar sellers, um, people are like Kevin, why are you starting a newsletter? Nobody reads email. Um, and my ex-wife even at the time said something to that effect, and I was like no people. Actually, email is still the best medium. So, I started the newsletter, and now it’s one of my most powerful, influential things. You’ve done the same thing with the lunch with Norm newsletter, and it’s grown and it’s doing well. Not only does it make money and make profits, but that they, they have influence and it can lead to other things. And a lot of brands, though, are still maybe they send out a newsletter, but that’s really not a newsletter. It’s a marketing email.
Norm:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
It’s not really providing value. It’s just announcing their new stuff or new promotions or whatever the crap. But if you do a real newsletter, but even beyond that, forget the newsletter, because you know that takes work and effort and AI can help on some of that, but just sending emails to your customers giving them something of value, or sales emails so many people that you and I have talked to in the Amazon space. They either don’t have a list of customers, they’re just counting on Amazon and sell the next guy and the next guy, or, if they have a list, because they did product inserts or they generated some other way off of Shopify or whatever they’re afraid to email it. Like what if I upset somebody? What if they unsubscribe, or what if I bother them? And they get mad at me? And it just baffles my mind how many people have that attitude that email is dead or so 1990s and that I don’t want to ruffle any feathers by sending emails are going to spam or someone complaining back to me. Quit sending this stuff. I get that now. I sent out some marketing emails in my head, one today. A guy who’s sent, you know, has been to done a few things and he said man, this one, this one advertiser of yours, it’s like, it’s like every, every week, I get an email from them. Well, he knows that advertiser’s name now and at some point, he may buy something or at some point he may not, but what are you seeing in the world of email when it comes to people doing e-commerce, and what are some of the things they’re doing wrong and they should be paying attention to?
Norm:
Well first of all, I hear email’s dead and I’ve heard that for years and my answer is it’s not dead, it just smells funny and that’s good for us because people think you know there’s no worth to it. There’s tons of worth. I was dealing with a brand that had 280,000 emails and was a beauty brand and he never sent out one because he thought he would annoy somebody. And I just I, no matter how hard I tried, I could never get him to send out anything. Well, the truth is, if you provide some value, it’s not the, it’s not your typical email that’s going out there. But if you provide value and it might be you don’t see the promotion, or it might be a slight promotion, but more value within the newsletter, then that’s great. If you are and, Kev, we talked about this a lot but if you could profile somebody and there’s lots of ways of doing this now but you’re a pet company you want to know whether they have a dog or a cat, what size is the dog or the cat? You could even get down to the breed. Now you’re targeting them specifically and you might be talking to them about their St. Bernard and their large dog bed or maybe your dog bed company, and there’s so many things that you could do.
Kevin King:
You’re saying, combine the power of AI to enhance the email data that you have to make it even more powerful.
Norm:
Yeah, and I don’t even think all you need is segmented lists too. You don’t absolutely need AI. AI makes your life a lot easier for that, for sure but you could start if you want to start working with your email list and just sending out one by the way. If you just send out one and nobody is answering and you’re sending it from a new domain, even from your old domain, like your regular domain, maybe nobody’s getting it. This is the biggest problem, Kevin, is that when you’re sending out your emails, you don’t you think that they’re getting through, but the reality is, if you’re sending out a blast and you’re doing it wrong which probably, if you don’t know how to do it, you’re doing it wrong I can guarantee you probably 85 percent are going directly into spam or promotions and-
Kevin King:
It’s just like putting up a product on Amazon say, I’m gonna put my product on Amazon and wait for it’s like a field of dreams wait, wait for the sales to come in. If you don’t do the underlying stuff and the optimization and all that, then you’re not going to have the same results. And the same thing applies to email, and a lot of people either don’t understand that or don’t know what to do, and that can affect everything dramatically.
Norm:
Yeah, I showed you. I sent you over this graph of a client that was going in and he wasn’t found. 85% were in spam. Nothing made it to the inbox, Nothing. It went to promotions. So, there was that 15% that went in.
Kevin King:
That’s the guy that says email doesn’t work.
Norm:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the guy that says email doesn’t work and he’s going to miss out, or they’re going to miss out big time.
Kevin King:
I mean you and I with our newsletters. What you in the 60%, I get 60, anywhere from 58 to 70% open rates on my emails, my newsletter right now. You’re in that same kind of range right on yours?
Norm:
Yeah and we’re always working it. We’ve just transferred our email. We’re working on that right now. So we’re going over to a different service and now we’ve got to work the list. So now we’ve got to go out, we’ve got to seed the list and make sure that the open rate stays at that high level. But there’s a lot of work that people. First of all, here’s a tip, here’s the nugget. If you can write down a nugget for the day, it’s don’t send from your own domain, you get a second domain.
Kevin King:
Yeah. I have a second or subdomain or something.
Norm:
And you always warm it up that second domain, wherever you’re putting it.
Kevin King:
What’s warm it up mean?
Norm:
It just means that you’re sending out, you’re getting it warmed up, so you’re sending out just a small amount of emails, getting them into the inbox, adding seeds, so you can get-
Kevin King:
Building your reputation.
Norm:
Building your reputation. So the domain, your domain is going to either be high, high, middle, low or bad is going to either be high, middle, low or bad, and when you’re first starting it out with a few emails. You’re probably there are companies out there that they call it seeding, where they’ll find really clean email addresses, send them out knowing that they’re not going to go to spam, that they’re going to go directly into the inbox, and over time you start building that up and then you can start sending out. You know 5,000, 10,000. But you’re not going to do that right off the bat. It does take time. It’s a longer term process.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I think email and AI stuff are two things that people in the selling space whether you’re Amazon or Shopify or whatever are not taking advantage of. I built entire companies off of emailing and emailing again and again and again. And now with AI, whether you’re optimizing, I mean you need to be optimizing for Rufus and Cosmo, but that doesn’t do any good if you don’t have the underlying foundation of the keywords and that stuff fully optimized too. So they kind of go hand in hand. And then for more and more people are searching on GPT and Claude and all that stuff now doing product research there, and if you’re not showing up there, then you’re losing out and that’s only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. I think I saw a study like by 2030, something like 60 or 70% of all searches is going to start on an AI platform, not on an Amazon search or on a public search-
Norm:
You’re seeing it happening now.
Kevin King:
It happens now. It’s small. It’s like, I think, what was it? During Prime Day? They said like 40% of the younger generation used Rufus to do some of their search and something like 20, 18%, 17% of the older generation did it. But the older generation usually catches up. But the young people are now they’re doing voice search and they’re doing they’re doing a voice, you know they’re talking, they’re not typing anything, and then they’re using AI and they’re much more comfortable with it and they trust it. It’s amazing how much you know. I remember the CEO of Pattern was at an event recently and he said that as a gift of all these kids, that when they turn 16, they give them a car and they make some recommendations. Like we think you would like one of these three, pick one. And the kid didn’t do that. They went to ChatGPT and said, hey, I’m a 16-year-old, blah, blah, blah and I like to do this, this and this. What kind of cars would you recommend? It came back with some different cars and she went with that over what her parents recommended, because she trusted that more than what her parents said. And that’s that generation and that’s going to be working its way up more and more and more, and if you’re not optimized for that, then I think you’re losing out. So you uh, what, what? Do you have a service or company that’s actually doing some of that right now? Right?
Norm:
Right now. Yes, Uh, it’s called Dragonfish, been working on it for a while and uh, it’s email service as well as the AEO service and a couple other things tucked in there. But uh, but we’re on it.
Kevin King:
What’s that? Dragonfish.co or something like that, or what’s that?
Norm:
It’s changed so many times. It’s dfci.co.
Kevin King:
dfci.co. If you want information or some help on that. Before we wrap up here, we’ve got just a minute or so left. Is there any other thing you’re seeing out there that people need to be paying attention to in the Amazon space, either right this second, or what you’re seeing across over the horizon?
Norm:
Well, one of the things still is listings right there. I don’t think there’s a. There’s still a lot of people that haven’t taken the time to understand Amazon’s new compliance. So, get out there, ask ChatGPT. I did it, answered and it was correct, uh. But uh, just taking a look at images, a lot of the images. Uh, you know the knife company that I use. There it looked like a, a package and a knife used to work. Looks now when I, when I uh used product pinions what’s it called Image?
Kevin King:
Image checker.
Norm:
Image checker. Yeah, it said weapon and tower, so I had to change that around.
Kevin King:
Yeah, you can use Amazon Attribution for that. And inside Helium 10, PickFu, I believe, has something like that too embedded, but yeah, those kind of things are definitely stuff you need to pay attention to. But speaking of paying attention to, if they want to pay attention to what’s happening in the Norm world, how do they get Lunch with Norm newsletter? How do they reach out to you or anything like that?
Norm:
Well, if you want to hear the podcast, it’s Lunch with Norm podcast. That’s live every Monday. And if you check out YouTube, last week’s podcast will be published, edited, uh, kind of flashy a little bit. Uh, take out all the uh Nascar wrecks that happened during the live podcast. And then, uh, lwn.news. That’s lwn.news is where our uh, you can find our newsletter. And then, of course, I have the Marketing Misfits, which is with you. We have really incredible people on every I think we publish every Tuesday and check it out. The list is incredible these marketers, business people, just people that if you listen to one episode, you’ll get nugget after nugget after nugget. So that’s at marketingmisfits.co or you can check it out on YouTube at Marketing Misfits Podcast. If you just want the three-minute clips, the nuggets, you can go to Marketing Misfits Clips and they’re three-minute and under clips.
Kevin King:
Awesome. Well, Norm, thanks for coming on and being my first returning guest. This has been cool.
Norm:
Yeah, it has been. Good talking with you. Want to go for a cigar?
Kevin King:
Let’s go, let’s go for a cigar right now. I’ll meet you in Tampa.
Norm:
All right, very good.
Kevin King:
All right man. I appreciate it again. Thanks for coming on.
Norm:
Yep.
Kevin King:
I always hear people say, like selling online e-commerce is dead. Move on to something else. I couldn’t disagree more. I think the best opportunities are now. Is it easy like it used to be? Maybe on Amazon? No, but if you can utilize a lot of other tools outside of Amazon, like normal saying, going on to retail or using email or using AI and doing all this stuff, the opportunities are immense and we’re at the beginning stages of some of these and if you can ride that wave, you’re going to have great success selling. Hope you enjoyed this episode. We’ll be back again next Thursday with another edition of the AM/PM podcast. Take care.
Enjoy this episode? Want to be able to ask questions to Kevin King live in a small group with other 7 and 8-figure Amazon sellers? Join the Helium 10 Elite Mastermind and get monthly workshops, training, and networking calls with Kevin at h10.me/elite
Make sure to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to our podcast!
Want to absolutely start crushing it on eCommerce and make more money? Follow these steps for helpful resources to get started:
- Get the Ultimate Resource Guide from Kevin King for tools and services that he uses every day to dominate on Amazon!
- New to Selling on Amazon? Freedom Ticket offers the best tips, tricks, and strategies for beginners just starting out! Sign up for Freedom Ticket.
- Trying to Find a New Product? Get the most powerful Amazon product research tool in Black Box, available only at Helium 10! Start researching with Black Box.
- Want to Verify Your Product Idea? Use Xray in our Chrome extension to check how lucrative your next product idea is with over a dozen metrics of data! Download the Helium 10 Chrome Extension.
- The Ultimate Software Tool Suite for Amazon Sellers! Get more Helium 10 tools that can help you optimize your listings and increase sales for a low price! Sign up today!
- Does Amazon Owe YOU Money? Find Out for FREE! If you have been selling for over a year on Amazon, you may be owed money for lost or damaged inventory and not even know it. Get a FREE refund report to see how much you’re owed!
- Check out our other Amazon FBA podcasts including the Serious Sellers Podcast, as well as our Spanish version!
- You can also listen to the AM/PM Podcast on YouTube here!