#473 – The Secret Formula Behind High-Converting Listings with Karyn Thomas
Unlock the secrets of e-commerce success this holiday season by mastering the art of Amazon listing optimization with Karyn Thomas, our seasoned guest with a knack for turning Amazon product pages into sales powerhouses. Journey through her inspiring transition from a marketing professional to a listing optimization guru, and discover the innovative FILTR framework that transforms ordinary product listings into irresistible offers. This episode offers a ton of strategies and insights that have propelled Karyn to the forefront of the e-commerce world, setting up your listings for stellar conversion rates and category rankings.
Dive deep into the FILTER framework, where each element, plays a pivotal role in capturing the attention and hearts of customers. Harness the power of “why” from Simon Sinek’s philosophy to engage shoppers on an emotional level, and learn practical ways to apply these concepts to your listings. Karyn also unveils the critical importance of visuals in product listings, exploring the use of advanced AI tools to enhance image analysis and storytelling that resonates with your target demographic.
As the digital landscape evolves, so must your strategies. Explore the latest trends in video content and AI integration for Amazon and beyond. Karyn discusses the growing potential of platforms like TikTok Shop and shares insights on maintaining a human touch amidst technological advancements. This conversation is packed with actionable tips to optimize your listings continuously, ensuring they remain competitive and compelling. Join us and embrace the exciting future of e-commerce with confidence and creativity.
In episode 473 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Karyn discuss:
- 00:00 – Listing Optimization Strategies for Amazon Sales
- 10:08 – Key Factors in Amazon Sales Success
- 11:28 – Listing Optimization Framework
- 18:17 – The Power of Storytelling in Sales
- 22:21 – Optimizing Amazon Listings With Images
- 29:01 – Amazon Listing Optimization Strategies
- 32:09 – Video Creation for Advertising and Listings
- 35:30 – Differentiating Product Positioning for Listings
- 41:20 – Effective Amazon Listing Design Strategies
- 45:26 – Importance of Design in Amazon Sales
- 47:37 – Human Touch in E-Commerce
- 55:50 – Human Touch in AI Marketing
Trasncript
Kevin King:
Welcome to episode 473 of the AM/PM podcast. This week, my guest is Karyn Thomas. We’re going to be talking about listing optimization. Right now in the middle of the holiday season. Hopefully your listing is optimized because it’s one of the most important things you can do all this cool AI stuff but the foundational stuff still matters. She’s got a framework that she’s going to share with you, called Filter. That I think is really good. Enjoy this episode with Karyn. She’s been in the game for a long time, so she knows what she’s talking about. Miss Karyn Thomas, welcome to the AM/PM podcast. Good to see you again. It’s been a while.
Karyn:
It’s been so long, Kevin. Seriously, I feel like I’m at my pinnacle of success being on your podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Such an honor.
Kevin King:
You’re welcome. You’ve been doing this for a while, and then you came and worked with Helium 10 for a little while. Then you went out on your own. Then I think you disappeared, or I didn’t see you. At least, maybe you didn’t disappear, but then you came back. And so how’s everything been? How’s life been treating you?
Karyn:
Oh, it’s been so, so good, Kevin. So, the reason I disappeared is I actually sold my agency three years ago, so I took a little mini retirement, was learning, growing in all areas of my life. So, yeah, I’m back and I think better than ever. So, yeah, it feels good.
Kevin King:
Awesome. So for those that don’t know what’s your story, Every good video starts with a story, right?
Karyn:
Yes.
Kevin King:
What’s your story? How did you get into this whole e-commerce thing?
Karyn:
Oh my gosh, Kevin, it’s quite the story. So you know, ever since I was little, I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. Didn’t know how to do it per se, but kind of did the traditional route. I went to college, got a business degree and I graduated in 2008. So unfortunately it wasn’t the best time. Basically, offers that I had for jobs were like oh sorry, we can’t hire you anymore because there’s a hiring freeze. So it was kind of just like an interesting time and I ended up getting a marketing job for a clothing business and it was reasonable but it wasn’t anything. Like you know, I went to college, got this awesome degree and I’m like I just feel like I was built for more and anyways. Then I got married pretty young and had kids immediately and basically had to find a way to work from home. I really wanted to be present with my kids but still kind of have this aspirational dream of having my own business someday. So my husband at the time was also very entrepreneurial and he was trying a bunch of different online type businesses like affiliate marketing and drop shipping, and you know, basically we had a little bit of success with those, but nothing crazy and I was doing like my own customer service business and I tried a couple different MLMs and same thing like we just never had like great success.
Karyn:
But we really like determine, like there’s got to be something like people obviously making this work. And so my husband at the time came across this awesome course called Amazing Selling Machine and that’s kind of how we got introduced to the Amazon world. Very early on it was a fun time, Kevin. It was kind of like the Wild West back then. We could do a lot more without having so much red tape. So that was nice. And yeah, it was crazy, Kevin. Like I said, we had tried so many different businesses, but to see like it take off with Amazon was just wild, like it was crazy, crazy, crazy the amount of growth we started seeing. It was just so fun cause it was like I’m able to use my skills, my ex-husband was able to use his skills and we were just like off to the races.
Kevin King:
So what were you selling?
Karyn:
So our first product was actually a derma roller. I don’t know if you’ve heard of those. So even back then it was pretty competitive. It was kind of like a hot new product, but I was just like you know, that’s something I would like to use, so I could really identify with you know the customer and speak to them that way. So yeah, even with it being super competitive we were. We were usually like the number one in that category. So we did really really well and had a good run with that. And then we did several other different brands as well. We had like a baby brand, we had like car seat covers and we had a really random product actually was really good. It was like a nipple shield case for breastfeeding like such a random thing.
Kevin:
Basically, everything a really young mom would need.
Karyn:
Exactly like, but random stuff like I never. Even when I was a young mom, I didn’t ever think I needed that, but, yeah, there was a demand for it. So, yeah, we had some, some cool businesses, for sure, in that space. And then, you know, for me my superpower was basically optimizing a listing. So we started seeing some crazy conversions. Like I said, we had a really good ranking for our products and our conversion rates were crazy. And so I felt like, okay, I think I’ve got something down here and we were basically at a mastermind that ASM was hosting and the owner, Matt Clark, was saying you know, we are looking for people to have like mini courses that you know, whatever your superpower is, and teach kind of a mini course on that. And so for me, I thought this was a great opportunity because I, like I said, I really understood conversions and so I created a course on their platform and that did really well what they were doing.
Karyn:
That was usually in like the top three courses watched and kind of from there it sprang into an unexpected business that I wasn’t planning on doing. But basically people started reaching out or like, hey, you’re obviously really good at this, can you write my sales copy for me and do the keyword research? And then it kind of grew into you also do my images and my infographics. And then a plus content became a thing, and then video became a big thing, and then video became a big thing. So yeah, basically by the end of it I had a pretty good size agency providing all of the brand assets for Amazon sellers and it was really fun. So I grew that for a while. And then, back at the time, Manny Coats reached out for the opportunity at Helium 10 to be a what’s it called, a brand not ambassador but-
Kevin King:
Evangelist maybe?
Karyn:
Yes, thank you. Yeah, it’s a cool word. So I did that for a couple years almost and then got back into doing my agency and then shortly thereafter I got an opportunity to sell it and so, yeah, I did that. I had like a three or not compete. So here I am back doing my agency. So it’s quite like I said, it’s quite a long story.
Kevin King:
I like the name because it’s got king in it. It’s got conversion king.
Karyn:
I thought it was really nice.
Kevin King:
I like that. That’s like I’m like. When I saw that, I was like that’s my girl, all right.
Karyn:
Seriously, how did you get such a cool name? Like that is-
Kevin King:
I was born with it, so it’s good to be the king. What’s that old movie line? From one of those old, like 70s movies, Monty Python, I think, and the Holy Grail? He’s like it’s good to be the king.
Karyn:
I think you were destined for greatness, right?
Kevin King:
I don’t know about that, but some kings get their head chopped off, you know.
Karyn:
That’s true.
Kevin King:
So it depends. So, on listing optimization, that’s an interesting field to be in, to come back in, because it’s totally different than it was when you were selling baby toys and health products for it to roll with and stuff. But back then we didn’t have the data, we didn’t have the information or the tools that we have now, and now, with AI, people are just banging out stuff like crazy and asking AI, what are the different angles? So how does that affect how your approach is the second time around to do this? And uh, because a lot of people were like I ain’t paying, I don’t know what you charge, but I’m not paying x amount when I can just go to Nano Banana and do this like on my own. So we’ll talk about the difference between humans and robots doing things in a minute. But what, what? How has that affected your approach, or has it?
Karyn:
Yeah, I think my approach is more to work with AI. I think it is a powerful tool. It’s still, like you probably understand, it’s not perfect. I don’t think it’s ever going to be as good as like human intelligence, and you still have to ask the right questions. You still have to know what you’re doing from a driver’s seat. It’s like anybody can have you know a really cool Ferrari, but if you don’t know how to drive it, it’s not going to. You know, drive as good as someone that does. So I think for me, is definitely using it as a tool and helping people use it properly. I’m actually offering people like their own custom ChatGPT to basically write bullet points how I would do it, with the right questions and the right prompts and the right structures, so that you know, yeah, they can use AI for themselves, but use it the right way.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I compare it to like flying an airplane. You go up on a plane. You know that most people don’t realize you’re on a three-hour flight-
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
From Austin to Vegas or whatever, and the plane is flying itself. It’s like a Tesla self-driving car, a Waymo for like 99 percent of that time, but there’s still a pilot there, uh, for the takeoff and the landing. And you still need a pilot for the takeoff and the landing when you’re building a listing-
Karyn:
Yep.
Kevin King:
Uh, and someone to self-correct when things go awry. So the human’s not out of the loop. And I think a lot of people are getting a confidence that they can do things that they really don’t know anything about. You have a degree in marketing. You’ve been doing marketing. You understand psychology. Yeah, a lot of people don’t know how to apply that to a listing, or they know how to use Helium 10 or one of the other tools to actually get a list of keywords, but they don’t know how to do that psychology and that, especially when it comes to video and images, and I think that’s yeah, they might create pretty images, but pretty images don’t necessarily sell, and so I think that’s where a lot of people are getting confused in their head on some of this. But so when someone comes to you for this, what are the key foundational things that you see that a lot of people are missing when it comes to selling on Amazon?
Karyn:
Ooh, that’s such an excellent question.
Kevin King:
When they come to you and they’re like, hey, can you help me out? And you start looking into them doing the onboarding or whatever, and you’re like, holy cow, here we go again. Another one of these. What’s missing? What are they missing? The gap on?
Karyn:
You know what’s crazy, Kevin is. I feel like as much as I’ve been talking about this and I think most people know this and it gets talked about a lot but I just think that human connection and the emotional selling is still lacking. I think most people can have pretty decent looking listings, but they lack that connection. I actually have a framework. Do you mind if I share it?
Kevin King:
It’s FILTR, right?
Karyn:
Yes, Kevin you came prepared, I’m impressed. Yeah, so it’s an acronym and basically it’s kind of like my checklist going through how I approach a listing. So when I first started, I had kind of what I was like a why buy FILTR, and it was basically Simon Sinek’s really popular podcast. He talked about starting with the why and I was like, oh my gosh, this applies just as much to selling on Amazon, because most people they’ll, you know, start with like the boring stuff what your product is and list all the features and you know it’s not leading with the emotion with the why, like Simon Sinek said. So I always was very passionate about that, like really getting into the psychology of who your target demographic is and why this product is going to make them a better version of themselves. So then it kind of grew into this FILTR acronym, my framework, and so the F stands for frictionless and you know people don’t have big attention spans, as you know, and so when they’re looking at your listing before they even click and then after they click, is there anything on that listing that’s going to make them bounce really fast. So, for example, is it really clear, you know, the sizing? Is it clear the ingredients? Is it clear the dimensions of your products, these types of things that people really want to quickly make sure, like I’m in the right space and if those things aren’t clear, that’s causing friction and they’re going to bounce so fast and find something else that may be better for what they’re looking for. So that’s really important to think about.
Karyn:
And then I is identity, and this ties into the why is really knowing your target demographic and, like I said, the first product I did it was a product that I would use as a customer, so it was really easy for me to talk about because I know myself so well. I know my emotional triggers about why I want to buy things, and so really diving deep into who your ideal customers is so important. Because I’m sure, Kevin, you would agree, like, if you’re on a listing that is targeted to someone like me, you’re going to be like this isn’t for me, I’m in the wrong place. It’s almost like stepping into a woman’s bathroom. Like you, you want to make sure your listing really appeals to your target demographic and it speaks to them, and you know people can buy your ideal target demographic. Other people outside of that can still buy your product, but you want to really focus on your core message. Like, for example, manscaped right. Like women can use that product. But how much better is it when a woman’s business is more focused on women and that’s focused on men and that specific target demographic right, and so that’s so, so essential to know the identity of your target demographic and to really speak to that and all of your language and your images and they’ll feel like, oh my gosh, this brand really understands me. Oh my gosh, this is so funny, it’s so cool.
Kevin King:
I use the analogy, on that, yeah, of a baseball bat. If you go into a sporting goods store and there’s 50 baseball bats hanging up on the wall.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
And you’re trying to pick the one you hand and you happen to be left-handed uh and all, and there’s one baseball bat out of those 50s that’s a 50 that says this is for left-handed hitters. uh, even if it’s the exact same bat as one that’s down somewhere else, but they just packaged it and positioned it as for left-handed, you’re going to buy that one.
Karyn:
A thousand percent.
Kevin King:
For me, that must be the one that’s for left-handed, even though it may be identical. So that’s something along the lines of your eye that I always tell people, but continue.
Karyn:
I love that. Thank you for bringing that. Such a good example and so on point. Okay. So moving into the L, which stands for lifestyle, so this is really kind of giving the aspirational result of what your target demographic wants to have. So you’re showing the lifestyle and you know, like people we follow on Instagram or TikTok or Facebook, like, for example, people in this space look to you as like the aspirational, like, oh my gosh, I’ll have made it when I’m like Kevin King, right. So you’re showing that aspirational end result that you want to have and so make sure you’re showing that with the type of models, the type of locations, that it’s relatable but it’s also they want to become a better version of themselves by buying that product. So it’s showing kind of that end result throughout the listing.
Karyn:
And then T stands for trust. So again, this is so important to build credibility, not only just with reviews but again having the content that they want to see. So again it goes. It ties into the frictionless and the F of having, you know the sizing guides. Having a really high-quality listing is going to build trust. It’s going to build value, Like this is a premium brand that I I know I can trust with my money. So, really, in all aspects, build that trust. You can, you know, talk about, you know we have over 10,000 happy customers If you do, if you’ve been featured in certain locations like ABC or I don’t know, just different things like that that are going to build credibility and trust are another powerful lever that you can use to optimize your listing.
Karyn:
And then the E stands for emotion and, again, like I said before, people buy with emotion, even the most. What you’d think are boring products, those still can be sold with emotion and then justified with logic. So, again, building that credibility and that emotion in your sales copy, make it funny If this is a funny product, make it romantic If it’s a romantic product. You want people to feel something when they look at your images, when they read your sales copy, when they look at your A-plus content, when they watch your video. If you’ve done that, if they feel something when they look at your product listing, then you’ve won because people really buy with emotion. So that’s essential. Another goodie word.
Karyn:
And then, lastly, R stands for results. So what is the end result people want to get from buying your product? Like I said, people aren’t buying your product, they’re buying a better version of themselves in your product. So this is really powerful that you can do with before and after images, you can do it with comparison charts, you can do it with telling the story through a video, basically showing that they’re going to get the result they’re looking for and helping them get that result. So really clear instructions answering their questions already thinking methodically of what’s going to be an objection that’s going to hold them back, and answering that really quickly throughout your listing, not only just in your FAQ section and like an A plus content banner, but also just throughout your sales copy and even in your infographics and your main image stack. So yeah, there you go. That was kind of a long answer.
Kevin King:
No, that’s great. You spoke a story there at the end. Have you ever heard of the simple objects study?
Karyn:
I don’t think so. No, tell me.
Kevin King:
You can Google it. Okay, I think it’s called Simple Objects. It should come up. Okay, the gist of the study is it was done 15, 20 years ago. These guys went out and they bought like I may have the numbers a little bit off here, but like $38 worth of crap at garage sales. Yeah, so they bought just junk at garage sales. And then they came back and they gave each of these pieces of crap to copywriters and they had the copywriters write a story about each piece and then they listed these things up on eBay and they generated something like off of $38 worth of stuff because they put a story with it like $3,800.
Karyn:
Are you serious?
Kevin King:
Just by putting a story with each item.
Karyn:
Oh my gosh.
Kevin King:
Yeah, it’s a very interesting study to go and take a look at and it shows you the power of a good story.
Karyn:
Wow.
Kevin King:
And there’s on the other podcast I do, Marketing Misfits. We’ve had someone talking about the six-second story, where on a video or on a newsletter or on anything, you’ve got some people call it the hook.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
But it’s, I guess, an expanded hook where you need to capture them in that six seconds and if you can condense the story into that six seconds and then expand on it you can be very effective because that draws people in. I’ve done that in my newsletter. I haven’t done it as much lately but when I was first starting to help get it going I was writing a lot of more personal stories in the newsletter. One of them would be like the six yeah, you know the six second story with yesterday my, my beloved dog passed away and then I, and that catches people and like oh, what is it? And it’s catches the emotion and they then they read it and then they keep reading the rest of the newsletter. Or I had a, I had a uh, one of my subject lines in the very beginning was naked girl on balcony. And what happened? People were like what the hell? Naked girl on balcony. They opened it up. It’s like yesterday I opened the window and there’s a naked girl on the balcony. And so you know that’s that six second story. It kind of tells you but what do you mean? Tell me more. And then it was. I told the story of I live in a high rise in Austin and went out to let my dog use do its business on the balcony because I have a little grass pad there and I look over and there’s a naked girl across in the building next to me, just hanging out 50 feet away on the balcony and so and I tied that back to business but those kind of things work.
Kevin King:
So how do you do that? Some people will argue well, nobody reads the copy on Amazon. They’ll say say you know, they read the title maybe and they might skim it. Yeah, they’re looking at the title, the price and the images and they only read the copy. If it’s technical, they need to know a technical thing. So you could put all this effort into DLP copywriting and all this kind of stuff. But what is your thoughts on how many people are actually reading that or how many aren’t? Or maybe you have data that shows look, the copy changes it, enough people are reading it, or it changes it. What’s your thought on that?
Karyn:
No, I totally agree with you. I think people do skim it. Yeah, I think if it’s very compelling and it’s like a very memorable brand, I think people are more willing to read it If it’s like you said, if there’s a good hook. So a good way to do that is just having like a good skimmable kind of like a headline to each bullet point that’s in all caps. It’s like three to five sentence or three to five words, excuse me, in all caps. I can just like quickly skim it. And if it is more of like a juicy bullet point, I think people are more willing to be like oh my gosh, like this is crazy. So yeah, I think on the spectrum it’s not as essential as other parts of your listing, but I think you can still make it juicy and if it’s good enough, I think people will take some time to skim over and read it.
Kevin King:
I think Amazon actually is discouraging the use of those capital. That was an old trick, like from the amazing days. I think they’re actually discouraging that nowadays. I don’t think there’s spending listings, but I think they’re actually discouraging it. But my, my position on that is use it until you get a slap on the hand. And then get a slap on the hand, just change it and your listing will be back up in 15 minutes, just like with images. If you do something, um, usually can get back up really, really fast. But I think I think people, uh, um, my friend, Perry Belcher, actually once said people don’t buy products on Amazon, they buy photos and so that. So what a lot of people will look at the photos and they may not get through the whole image stack. So the order of those photos and the sequencing makes a difference.
Kevin King:
And now, with AI and with Cosmo reading those and passing that data to Rufus and the AI, what’s in that image is even more critical. And the example I always give is if I’m selling umbrellas and I’m trying to capture people to buy my umbrella, to go to the beach to plop in the sand next to me to keep from burning, and all my pictures are with an umbrella and someone walking in the rain. I’m not going to rank nearly as high, even though I might have the keywords beach, umbrella in my listing, because Amazon’s now analyzing the listing, sorry the images and they’re analyzing the video, and now Amazon is also using outside data, like articles from Vogue, to actually rank beauty products, and so it’s a whole new game. So how are you adapting to that?
Karyn:
Yeah, no, I’m totally with you. I absolutely agree. It’s so essential to know your customer really well. So reading if it’s already a listing that is active, reading all of your reviews, reading all your competitors’ reviews and really seeing what the pain points are, and then if you can address that and speak to that clearly and tell that story in your images, that’s massive. Because I absolutely agree, I do actually look at images quickly when I’m buying as a consumer and if I’m confused or if I’m like I don’t know. For example, there was a girl I talked to recently and she had a really cool product and you know she kind of had this pitch like it’s a great bag for new moms. When they’re busy, they can just have everything ready and go out the door, because you know that it’s overwhelming to have to pack up and bring your kids and bring a thousand bags. So she’s telling this awesome story. And then on her listing, you know it was a young, hot, looks like a single girl who’s never had kids before. So I’m like there’s a disconnect, right, you’re not speaking to your target demographic, you’re not showing that story and, like you said, the image is everything to make someone feel like they’re in the right place. So, yeah, I think that’s really essential. And then-
Kevin King:
Well, I think even now, with like a plus, they’re not actually reading or allowing you to put uh alt text anymore, like they used to, that you had 50 words or 50 characters or whatever it is. They just recently, I think, took that away. So they’re trusting the machines more and more and more, and even the positioning in a photo. You can use Amazon recognition R-E-K-O-G and so on -nition to actually see what Amazon thinks is in your photo and Amazon Recognition. And there’s also another tool called Image Check that the guys from Product Opinion have. Both of these are free, but I’ve done it where I’ve positioned. I’m an old man, so I need some little reading glasses to read a menu or something, and these reading glasses go on the back of your phone. They have a little case and they glasses go on the back of your phone. They have a little case and they just slip on the back of your phone. They’re little, small, thin reading glasses. So I pulled those out just slightly from the back of the phone so you can kind of see them, put it on a table, took a picture and send it into recognition. So what is? Tell me what this is. And so this looks like a mobile phone with some keys, a key chain or some keys attached. I was like no, those aren’t keys. And so I went back and reshot the photo and took the little glasses and moved them a little bit more out, and then it recognized them as some sort of glasses.
Karyn:
Wow.
Kevin King:
Just the positioning of something in an image now can make a huge difference with some of the AI stuff. And so that’s what a lot of people I don’t think understand um right now is with cosmo and rufus, you, you have to have a solid foundational listing with the keywords and all that stuff and the well-written copy. But then, on top of that now you have to layer on cosmo and rufus and if you look at Cosmo, Juana’s uh, one of the best people in the space for that, but there’s, she studied the science paper. If you go by the science paper, it says there’s 15 different things that Amazon wants answered in a listing what’s it used for, what’s its used function, who’s it used by. All these are in the science paper and she says that, if you’re not, she has a GPT that actually will check your listing for that. If it’s missing, it makes a suggestion what you need to add so that all those are covered. So there’s those little details that a lot of people are missing now when it comes to building listings, and it’s hard to stay on top of what you should be doing.
Karyn:
Yes.
Kevin King:
What’s your listing a year ago or two years ago and it’s been doing good, but you’re going to slowly start eroding if you don’t start playing this new game where you got to do the old way and the new way layered on top. But then how do you do it when, when you’re creating listings, you know there’s five stages of awareness, um, and so I I think the stages are like, uh, unaware, so they don’t know you exist, your product exists, yeah. The second stage is problem problem aware. They, they know there’s a problem and they’re trying to find something. Uh, that will do it. And there’s solution aware, where people like I know the solution. I’m just trying to decide which one is the best, uh. And then there’s product aware whether, wherever your product, and there’s most aware, how do you change a listing or the videos or images, depending on the state that people are in to buy? And how do you figure out, like you said, you reading the reviews and stuff, what state are most of your buyers in, and they may be evolving through different states. So how do you address that in the video and the images and the listings that you create?
Karyn:
That’s such a great question and, to be honest, I haven’t really thought of those five stages, so I’m learning a lot from you in this, Kevin. That’s really smart. But yeah, I would say I kind of go about it with thinking that most people are aware of the solution, so they’re kind of already farther down.
Kevin King:
When I type it in keywords, they usually are. They’re like I need to find something to smash these onions or whatever it is, and so you want to answer that, and so that’s where most of the sales on Amazon are coming. But now with AI, people are going to ChatGPT and type in I need to smash a bunch of onions without crying, what are some options? And you want it to recommend your product. And so, in AI to recommend your product, it needs to be somewhere in the listing to get into one of these other stages that says, hey, this is the solution. If it’s not positioned exactly right in there, you won’t get mentioned and then you’re going to get bypassed. But the people still go on Amazon going onion smasher, no cry, you know something’s going to come up, um, but it’s. It’s more challenging now than you know. It used to be like when we started is just throw something up and go to the beach and listen to your phone. Ding, ding, ding, ding ding.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
And you turn it off. At the same time. You’re building a moat because you’re one of the first ones. You’re getting reviews and it just goes.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
As Amazon became. You know, they doubled their sales in about a five-year period. So you just grow with them and your sales double too. But the whole world now has changed and, like a lot of Amazon people need to get on TikTok shop, because competing on Amazon in the PPC is difficult, and then even for intent-based stuff, like we’ll get to talk about the videos in a minute.
But I just had someone on the Billion Dollar Seller Summit the last one back in August and he showed how to do your videos, especially in your sponsored video ads, differently. His example was a towel. He said if you’re selling a towel, you want to create your listing. What are they using that towel for? Maybe the towel is to dry off your dog after they took, after you give them a bath. Maybe the towel is to wipe your car after you washed it. Maybe the towel is to clean up a mess on the floor. Maybe the towel is for some other use. So what he did is he showed how to use AI and so you create your main video at 30 seconds, 60 seconds, whatever it is, but the first six seconds are completely different based on the keywords that you’re going after. The audience you’re going after for the first six seconds is showing a someone drying off the their dog with a towel, and then the rest of the video is all the same across the board, but every one of those is different. You can do some of that cool stuff now with AI especially. That’s really powerful and then going to TikTok shop and putting stuff there and to get that awareness.
Kevin King:
You know, in these stages. So it’s. It’s becoming a much more complicated game for the sellers than it used to be and you got to know a lot about marketing and psychology to pull this, to do it right, you could get lucky and just put something up and maybe hit, hit, hit a home run, but it’s becoming less and less likely and it’s a more sophisticated, mature game. So that’s what I. So what are you doing when it comes to video? One of your things that you do is you help people create. Is that the advertising videos, or is that the listing video? Or what are you doing on the video side?
Karyn:
Yeah, so both. So basically I do one for the, usually it’s like a minute video on the actual listing and then it’s usually a 40 to 45 second video for their sponsored ads. And yeah, I agree with you, I think those first six seconds are essential and honestly, I haven’t done that where I switch it out for those different keywords and that’s so, so smart to do that especially. And I’ve never done that side where I do people’s ads and so I haven’t, you know, been as integrated in the ad side of it. But I do think that’s so smart when you’re targeting those specific keywords towel for dog or towel for the beach and you’re showing that really fast in six seconds is brilliant. But yeah, as far as my methodology with video, it very much follows that filter framework so it mirrors basically the whole listing. I kind of have it mirror each other so it’s very cohesive. So kind of the same. What am I looking for? The same order that the bullet points are in. I kind of have the same image stack.
Karyn:
So basically the first bullet is you know what’s the big USP of this product, what makes it stand out from everything else? And then I’m really focusing that on the second image in the image stack right after the hero image, and then you know I’m going to justify with logic. So then what, what makes it so cool? What is you know that special feature? And then you know an infographic about that in the third image and so and so on, back and forth. So the bullet points and the image stack matches each other, and then same thing with the video, kind of building emotion, just fine with logic. So it’s kind of this heartbeat back and forth throughout, and that way people feel like they’re getting their answers but they’re also really being able to buy with an emotional decision because it’s speaking to that emotion.
Kevin King:
Do you try to cover multiple uses or multiple things in the same listing or the same video, or do you split them up? So back to this towel example. You could have three different listings and so it’s the same product, but you’re just a slightly different packaging and slightly different titles, but each one of these is aimed at a different specific use. Are you doing anything like that? I mean, it’s like the old examples like Excedrin, Excedrin Migraine, Excedrin Extra Strength and Excedrin are basically all the same thing. Yeah, so do you do. Do you do any recommend anything like that as well for listings to splitting them up into uses?
Karyn:
No, I haven’t. I haven’t worked with customers who do that, but I think that’s so smart. Just changing the packaging is brilliant. But yeah, usually people just have you know their main product and I do try to show, like, the different use cases it could be for this, it could be for that so that you know we’re giving more value to people, because a lot of times people don’t always think of ways that they could use it or dress it up or you know there’s some hidden benefits of it. So I’m really trying to like be comprehensive in the listing, but I think it’s really smart what you’re saying and I think that is such a great strategy.
Kevin King:
Yeah, we did it during COVID. We were selling wipes. You know like, uh, alcohol wipes to clean your hands. So we do wipes, uh, for you know these regular human wipes or whatever we called them. And then we would do gym wipes, and it’s exact same products. It’s just. This is to clean all your, your barbells and everything in the gym from germs. And then we do another one over car wipes. This is a clean off your, your car exact same product. Just every one of those is it’s positioned different and the whole listing is built around that and that works. That works really really well. Um, so that’s something that I don’t see very many people in the space doing. Um-
Karyn:
Yeah, I agree.
Kevin King:
They’re like. I got one listing. I’m trying to cover all my bases.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
And I think that can be a mistake, especially maybe not so much 10 years ago, because people still find you and you could just keyword stuff it.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
But now, with what you said, getting the emotion. Getting the emotion for getting your dog dry is different than getting the emotion for getting my car dry.
Karyn:
Yes.
Kevin King:
And so if you’re, if you’re targeting the wrong emotion in a listing, you may be converting really well for those people, but you’re alienating everybody else. So that’s a fine line. I think a lot of people need to start paying closer attention to, and maybe even splitting off, your product into very. It could be variations, but exact same thing, slightly different packaging, so Amazon can’t say anything with a different UPC and but each one’s targeted to a different use. If that applies it doesn’t apply to all products, but if that applies to your product, and then who knows, you might even end up owning more real estate on certain keywords, on the more generic keywords, you might have three of the top 20 listings or something for the different uses of your product. So that that’s. That’s something that a lot of people I think need to need to do. So when. And then there’s another thing like it’s you mentioned, uh, your, your filter thing has six letters in it.
Kevin King:
But I just spoke to someone the other day. It’s huge in AI and they’re in this, this consortium of, like huge companies, and they said if they have five intent based data points about you, so they know that Karyn loves to go for a run. They know she. She identity, not intent based, sorry, I’m gonna say an identity based. She’s a runner, she loves Gucci purses, she loves um. Her identity is whatever kind of car you drive and you know three, five total. If you have a sixth, that’s even more powerful. All you need is five and you know everything about that person.
Karyn:
Oh my gosh.
Kevin King:
You can put it into AI and, with some of this big data and these tools, and you can create an avatar. That’s just ridiculous.
Karyn:
Wow.
Kevin King:
And that’s basically what was happening the early stages of that’s what happened back when Trump ran the first time and you remember there’s a big to-do ho-ho over Cambridge Analytics. And this company had all this data that was like trying to influence him getting elected, and they did because they had all this data, and that was early, early on, before AI was sophisticated like it is now, but now, with tools, it’s crazy what you can do now, how you can hone in, and so that’s where I think, though, knowing those things plus using the tools, is where someone like yourself can really set yourself apart, because if you’re charging $1,000 or $1,500 or whatever it is to do this whole listing and video stuff, people are going well, I need to pay you that I can do this 20 different versions of this for $10 with VO3.
Karyn:
Well said.
Kevin King:
And you’re like well, the reason is this, this and this. Do you really know how to use VO3? Do you really know how to do this? Do you really know how to tell it to psychological? Yeah, but it’s working. I’m making some sales. Yeah, let’s test it. Okay, that’s what I’d be doing if I was you. I’d be like all right, you don’t want to pay my expensive package, let’s do it. Let’s do a $299 test or whatever, something that you can do cheaply. Yeah, not lose money on and say, okay, let’s, let’s run Amazon. Uh, experiments on Amazon. Not a pick food test, but an Amazon experience. And with my video and your video, my, my second image and your second image, see which one works. If mine wins, you agree to come and work for me and do my package?
Karyn:
Wow, I love that.
Kevin King:
Something like that, because I think in the whole agency listing side there’s going to be a wall. Come up now with people willing to pay what they used to pay.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
With all the AI tools, and so you have to show them why, and you understand all this underlying psychology and underlying things that the AI doesn’t always get. It can get it if you know how to prompt it, but most people don’t know how to prompt it. I think that’s a crucial, a crucial thing when it comes into listing. So, with a plus content, what’s a mistake you see a lot of people make in their repeating the same images that they used in their listing. What are some mistakes that you see a lot of sellers make? And then what are your recommendations on how to get the most out of A-plus?
Karyn:
Such a good question and seriously, Kevin, thanks for all this good, this great, great ideas that you’re giving me. I’m seriously like just blown away. I’m like, wow, this is like taking your brain. This is incredible, thank you. But yeah, as far as A-plus content goes, obviously you know there’s just the standard A-plus content and then there is the A-plus plus or the premium A-plus content. So that gives you a little bit more deluxe features where you can put in video, you can put in that alt text and for sure index for some of those keywords, and then you know you can have a specific section for FAQs again which helps with the AI pulling information and being able to answer questions more efficiently. But yeah, I think the biggest thing that people sometimes still do is putting way too much information. They just like really want to pack out with more information and more words and you know, sometimes less is more, and especially with images, I think if you can get the point across, it’s just like writing right. It’s like you want it to be long enough to cover the information but short enough to keep it interesting. And it’s the same with your A-plus content not stuffing it with so much information to making it look like so busy that people are like bouncing because they’re like this is too much right. So I think having enough text to basically explain it and to sell the benefit and the features of it, but not being so overwhelming that it’s like whoa, I don’t want to look at this because it’s too busy, it’s too much, it’s freaky. So, yeah, I think definitely having a good balance of, you know, the artistic, creative side and still, you know, justifying with the logic, with some words throughout.
Kevin King:
What’s your opinion on putting like comparison charts or comparing your product to others in the space?
Karyn:
Personally, I wouldn’t do other people’s. I would. If you have a line of products for your brand, I would just put different ASINs of your own product line so that way people can see you know different products I didn’t even know you offered and then, hopefully you know, increase that average cart value because they see oh my gosh, I didn’t know they also sell, like you said, especially if it’s like beach towel, dog towel or whatever they’re like. Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know. There’s different things here that I can buy from the same brand. And I’m already here, I’m already invested, I trust them. So, yeah, of course, I want to buy these two products too. So, yeah, that’s my preference. How about you?
Kevin King:
Yeah, and I agree with you on the a plus. If you’re creating one of those little charts where you throw in the ASIN, I would keep that to yours because that’s clickable. Yep, in your image stack I would put an image that’s comparing you to the others, for two reasons one, so people can see maybe they’ve already bounced over and looked at the other one. They can see the differences and you can highlight those. You don’t make it easy for them to click over. And if that other product is way better than you, you don’t put that in your chart. But and then also, AI loves that. So if you’re off of Amazon, if you have your own website or your own landing pages or Shopify, AI engines love comparison charts to help them make decisions. So it’s a very powerful AEO or GEO whatever you want to call it that people are calling to optimize for AI. It’s a powerful thing for that. I don’t know if it’s so much powerful for Cosmos AI or not, but I think an image showing that might be. And then I’ve had success in the past.
Kevin King:
You always want to show, if you can, the before and after. Like you said earlier, the it was results or whatever that um. You want to always show that before and after um effect and the what’s in it for me, too many, I see too many brands that they do this in ads. It’s like we are. They’re using the words we are our or I. Get that stuff out of all your marketing. It’s all about them, about you. What is it doing for you? That’s a big one that I see a lot of people making mistakes on. Nobody cares that our plastic is the best in the industry. They want to know what’s it going to do. This plastic is indestructible and your German shepherd will never be able to break through it, or whatever it is. Um, um, that’s what they want to know, and that’s where it’s people, I think, a lot of times start speech showing features and rather than benefits. What’s, what’s the change that this product makes?
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
And if you can show that you said that’s part of your filter thing, if you can show that, I think that helps a lot. And it’s hard to do. Sometimes you got to think that, but now with ChatGPT you got an instant brainstorming partner right there. You don’t have to sit around and scribble on paper and throw away a hundred of them or talk into a focus group, and you can do a lot of this with those tools. So what? What about design stuff? I mean, how important is design when it comes to selling on Amazon?
Karyn:
I think it’s so important, Kevin, I really do. I just think it’s. It’s the difference between, just, like you know, your average small business is a business that’s positioned to look like a premium brand right, and it’s honestly like I had the arrogance at one time and I didn’t go to school to be a graphic designer or anything. But you know, I, I’m fairly smart, I like I can use Canva, let me just try some things and I was like, oh my gosh, like the difference between someone that actually knows graphic design and, you know, just your average person like me is such a big difference. So, personally, I don’t I don’t recommend doing things yourself. Like I, I do think it’s worth investing in someone who is actually really good at it, because it definitely makes a difference. Just the premium quality of your, your infographics and your images is massive.
Kevin King:
Yeah, and there’s a lot of things, like you said, that a lot of people don’t know when it comes to design. Just little simple things like widows. Yeah, you know, like having a widow is a single word hanging online by itself or facing the way that things are directed. You know you always want to face inside to the page, not outside the page, because then you leaving them out. You know if you have, if you’re positioning something, it depends on which side of the page is showing up, Depends on how the positioning is. Whether you show the face or not, the face can make a difference. Whether someone’s smiling or not, smiling makes a difference. A lot of these things you can if you those listening, if you’re readers of the Billion Dollar Sellers newsletter BillionDollarSellers.com I cover some of this stuff in different newsletters and you can go to BillionDollarSellers.media and you can search for this stuff and you can find all the newsletters that have all these tips and tricks in them for how to do things, if anybody listening is interested in that. But there’s a lot of little nuances that people like you know because you’ve been doing this and you’ve seen the difference when you’re doing it for yourself and for clients and that can make. I’ll never forget I was on Pattern. You know who Pattern is.
Karyn:
Yeah.
Kevin King:
The number one seller on Amazon like $1.8 billion or $2 billion. They just recently filed for an IPO. But they do an event in May in Salt Lake City and I was there and I was there with some people from a couple other big groups that are very smart people and we’re sitting there on stage and their CEO is going up there and showing how they analyze photos for a picture. They have so many data points that they’ve scraped that. They brought, they brought wheeled out on the stage this huge box and it looks like one of those big photo boxes and they put inside the box on little table. They put a uh, some supplements, a bottle of supplements, and they put the camera on the trice to stand behind them and then they just shot that. They had something that changed the background out a whole bunch. Um, you could do some of this in AI. But they said the reason they don’t do it in AI is it doesn’t have, it didn’t have now tools. Now with some of the new tools may do this, but at the time you couldn’t get the proper shadows, you couldn’t get the proper things. With AI it would kind of fake it and not always be right and they would then test that and run all these, these split tests with 100 different images, just changing something minute in the image.
Kevin King:
He showed an image on stage like here’s the before and here’s the after. Can y’all anybody tell me the difference? Everybody’s looking at trying to find you know which one has six fingers and which one has five. And no, there’s nothing obvious. He said okay, here’s what it is. We move this thing over here three millimeters and we move this little flower and made it crinkle this way, and which one do you think actually outperformed on CTR? All right, uh, it was, oh no, so the one where we moved the crinkle it actually increased at 0.04 percent or 0.4 percent the CTR. He said. But when you’re selling a million dollars worth of these, that’s serious money.
Karyn:
Yeah, that’s a huge difference.
Kevin King:
They have that data, and so at that moment I was like holy cow, you guys are at such a different level and the other smart people that were with me said the same thing. They’re so much at a different level than we are.
Karyn:
Yeah that’s insane.
Kevin King:
But now, with AI and with tools and with people like you that know this, you can get close. You can. You can get close, but you’re not going to be patterned and that’s why they’re doing two billion dollars. But you can get close and so that’s why I think a lot of people the fund with all this cool AI stuff and everything’s, but the fundamentals still matter yeah and the fundamentals of building a solid listing that evokes all the stuff in your filter. You guys should rewind this and listen to what she said again about the filter technique and apply that to your listing is all super cool, but people get caught up and like, well, how do I make this optimized for Rufus? And they mess up the whole underlying foundation. You got to layer these things on top of each other and that’s what’s important right now, at least in today’s. This may change next year, but that’s what’s important right now. So how does the process work when someone comes to you and says, hey, I want you to do an image package for me. You do the lifestyle photos, you do videos, you do the listing, all the keywords, that whole process. How long does that take and what’s that look like?
Karyn:
Yeah, thanks so much for asking that, Kevin. So, yeah, usually I jump on a call with someone to really get an idea of their product, their brand, what they’re trying to accomplish, and then, yeah, sometimes it’s just a standard package, sometimes it’s a custom package, and then I give them also a type forms. We can get all the information I need. Sometimes, you know it’s specific, obviously their brand guidelines and their competitors, all those things, just so I can get a robust feeling of you know what they’re really trying to accomplish and do my research as I’m creating this. And then, yeah, usually it’s about 21 days after they fill that form out that I have everything completed. And, yeah, it’s definitely, you know, lifestyle images, product images, artistic images with props and A plus content and infographic design, keyword research, sales copy and then video. So, yeah, I think what you said is so key that pattern does.
Karyn:
I think it’s so easy, for just it’s human nature right to sometimes be complacent. If something’s working, we just, like you said, it may work, but it’s probably slowly eroding and then people that are willing to keep testing and evolving are probably going to slowly sneak up, and I’ve seen that happen to me and I’ve also done that to other people right, it’s so essential to have this optimization mindset of don’t get complacent, to keep testing things, switch out different images, test different A plus content designs and using, like you said, that managed experiment is so important, just so that we actually have the data right, because I may think I know best, you may think you know best, but the sales don’t lie. So really having that data and be willing to keep testing, keep growing, keep trying different things is so essential, and I’m not surprised why Pattern is as big as Air, because they really have that mindset. I think it is so important mindset.
Kevin King:
So in your package, are you shooting the, the photos with a, a camera and a photographer, and the video with camera and photography, or are you doing it’s an AI or a combination of the two?
Karyn:
No. So yeah, I still, I still do it all with actual people and photographers, videographers. We have a premium graphic designer, so yeah, I still do it. And even with, like sales copy, I have prompts, but I, like I said, even as good as I am, I still. I still know ChatGPT is not going to get right even with all my prompts and stuff. So I still have to do a lot of work and cleanup to get the sales copy where it needs to be and maybe that will change eventually. But yeah, I’ve tried it, I’ve tested it myself, even with all my prompts and do it like this, how I would write it, and it’s still, it’s still not where it needs to be. So, yeah, it’s still very much human centered that I get ideas, like you said, great brainstorming, great information, great research, but when it comes to the final product, it’s definitely all human experts.
Kevin King:
Human touch.
Karyn:
Yep.
Kevin King:
Is this just for Amazon or because there’s slight variations? If you’re going to do like TikTok shop or Walmart or Shopify, do you make the modifications? Is that part of it as well, or is it strictly for Amazon?
Karyn:
Yeah, and basically depending on what they need. So yeah, if they want that, I definitely can make those modifications, or for a landing page, or yeah, so definitely have the capabilities to do all that.
Kevin King:
And if they want to do this, how do they find out about the Conversion King?
Karyn:
Oh, I’d love that. So, yeah, you can go to my website, conversionkingdom.com, or you can reach me on….
Kevin King:
Kingdom or king?
Karyn:
Kingdom.
Kevin King:
Kingdom okay, conversionkingdom.com okay.
Karyn:
Okay, yeah, and then you can find me on Facebook or Instagram just Karyn Maridee Thomas, and you can have a conversation there. But, yeah, thank you so much for giving me a little shout out with that.
Kevin King:
No problem, I appreciate you coming on the AM/PM podcast. This has been fun. It’s good to see you again.
Karyn:
Kevin, it’s been so fun. Honestly, like I just appreciate all of the massive wisdom and expertise you’re dropping. I’m just blown away by how much you know on so many different topics. It’s pretty wild so-
Kevin King:
That’s what happens when you write a newsletter. You have to stay on top of everything.
Karyn:
You’re very on top of things. It’s amazing.
Kevin King:
You know I’m old, I’ve been doing this for a couple days. So I’m, I could be your I could be your grandfather.
Karyn:
No, no, you’re extremely. I always knew you were brilliant, but I’m just like it’s wild. You just keep blowing my mind. So thank you so much for sharing this it’s helpful for me and listening. This is gold you’re dropping.
Kevin King:
Thank you, appreciate it, and thanks again for coming on. We’ll talk to you soon.
Karyn:
Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much, bye.
Kevin King:
A human touch in an AI world is still a big mover when it comes to actually getting optimizing and getting the maximum click-through rate and buy-in rate that you can get. AI tools are great, as you can see in our discussion between me and Karyn, and can definitely help you and save you a lot of time and help you iterate and get a lot of options and brainstorm with. But at the end of the day, I still believe and agree with her that a human needs to be involved in that and there are some nuances that can make a huge difference. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, got something out of it, and if you want more tips on how to build your listing, you can always check out BillionDollarSellers.com as well. That’s my free newsletter every Monday and Thursday. We’ll be back again next Thursday with another edition of the AM/PM podcast. And I hope everybody’s Q4 is off to a great start and you’re ready for a nice Black Friday and Cyber Monday coming up. We’ll talk to you again next week.
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