#366 – Amazon PPC In The Eyes Of A High-Performing Agency with Elizabeth Greene
Get ready to unlock secrets to mastering Amazon advertising with our guest, Elizabeth Greene, an Amazon PPC expert, and a successful work-from-home mom. With her unique blend of personal and professional experience, Elizabeth navigates us through the complexities of Amazon PPC, sharing her insights on launching products and understanding the changes of Amazon PPC then and now. Her first-hand tips are sure to equip you with invaluable tools to thrive in this dynamic marketplace.
Plunge right into the challenges of Amazon PPC as we talk about Elizabeth’s journey into this industry. We explore the transformation of the Amazon Advertising platform, tackling issues that sellers face including rising costs and adapting to Amazon’s updates. Together, we dissect the upcoming changes to broad match and sponsored product ads, and anticipate the potential impacts on keyword targeting and off-platform advertising. If you’re looking to understand the complexities of Amazon’s advertising world, this episode is a very good listen.
As we conclude, we talk about a thorough understanding of video ad optimization and PPC strategy evaluation. Elizabeth helps us decode the elements of a successful video ad and the value of having the product as the focal point. We also uncover the importance of storytelling through data and a collaborative client relationship when choosing an Amazon ad agency. Wrapping up, we leave you with Elizabeth’s wisdom to help you calculate advertising ROI, identify competitive categories, and boost your Amazon business’ success. Prepare to be enthralled, enlightened, and empowered by this episode!
In episode 366 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Elizabeth discuss:
- 06:56 – Navigating Amazon Advertising and Data Analysis
- 18:59 – Sponsored Products and Off-Platform Advertising
- 21:32 – Difference in Targeting and Expanded
- 25:36 – Effectiveness of Product Targeting on Amazon
- 29:01 – Product Selection and Relevancy in Launch
- 34:42 – Determining Benchmarks for Advertising Metrics
- 45:28 – Amazon Search Query Performance Data Value
- 51:12 – Clear Product Focus in Sponsored Video Ads
- 57:11 – LinkedIn Benchmarking and Search Tips
- 57:44 – This Week’s Words Of Wisdom From Kevin
Transcript
Kevin King:
Welcome to episode of the AMPM podcast. My guest this week is Elizabeth Green from Jungler. Elizabeth is a stay-at-home mom but more importantly, she’s a PPC expert one of the best in the business, in fact and in today’s episode she’s going to provide a ton of practical advice and real-world examples around Amazon, ppc, the best ways to launch your products, and more. I think you’ll really like this episode and get ready to take some notes and also make sure you take a note of the billion-dollar sellers newsletter. It’s a totally free newsletter I send out every Monday and Thursday. It’s like a $, mastermind in a free newsletter. You go to billiondollarsellerscom to get that.
And on December th also mark your calendars I’m going to be doing a free webinar about how you can actually start your own newsletter to build an audience, to crush it, selling physical products on Amazon and Walmart and everything else. I’m going to show you exactly how to do it, which tools to use and some give you a lot of really good ideas. So that’s December th, totally free webinar. You can sign up for that at billiondollarsellersummitcom. Billiondollarsellersummitcom forward slash webinar. Billion dollar seller summit forward slash webinar. Enjoy this episode with Elizabeth. Let’s do this. Here’s your host, kevin King, welcome to the AMPM podcast Elizabeth Elizabeth Green from.
Elizabeth:
Jumper.
Kevin King:
How are you doing?
Elizabeth:
I am doing well.
Kevin King:
You know, we’ve never actually met in person, like you were just telling me that you like to network online but don’t like to really go out to the event. So, which is all totally cool, that means you’re getting a lot of work done. You’re not out there playing, you’re actually getting things done.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, yeah, that’s. That’s been a personal choice. I have a very robust home life and I just don’t like leaving it. It’s not anything against any of the networking events I still propose. If I go, I’m sure I would have a blast. I have so many good friends in the industry now, like I would, I would enjoy myself thoroughly. It’s the days before and after and travel time that I don’t want to deal with, so sleep in a strange bed with a strange pillow.
Kevin King:
You don’t have your pets with you. You don’t have, you know, all those comforts of knowing what’s in the fridge, all that stuff.
Elizabeth:
You know, I know I totally get it it’s no that, and you know I have quite a few children, so leaving them and like I’d be fine, they would be fine, but like personal choice.
Kevin King:
But? But you do a really good job online. I mean, I see your LinkedIn has. You have a lot of followers on LinkedIn, so you do a really good job networking online. You provide a lot of value online that people really resonate with, so thanks for contributing so much to the community out there. Yeah, I try, I try so how do you find time for all that? If you get all these, you got to try the kids, you got the business, you got the free stuff that you’re contributing how do you work that online?
Elizabeth:
I honestly just by cutting everything else out, and so I do it. People ask so my life is probably insanely boring to some, but it’s a life I like, so I just roll with it. I’ve gotten old enough long enough in life to realize that you know what. If you like it and it’s working for you, just go with it, like don’t overthink it.
Kevin King:
I love it, I love it.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, life is definitely it’s it’s work and family. And I, you know you have those moments of you know it feels like this is all I’m doing and you know, maybe I should get a hobby and then I come back to it. You know what? I really enjoy it. I like the way it’s set up, so I’m fine with it.
Kevin King:
So do you have a background in advertising, or what did you do before you got into this, this Amazon world?
Elizabeth:
I do not. My background is stay at home, mom, oh really Okay. One straight from that life into this one. So it’s it’s been a roller coaster. It’s been a huge learning curve.
Kevin King:
I love it, but so for you for years, for years, when you had your children, you just just stay at home. Mom didn’t work, didn’t do anything. But what led into all of a sudden saying, hey, I want to mess around with this, this Amazon PPC.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, yeah. So, like side note, it wasn’t like just the whole stay at home gig. So I definitely that was like the huge everything part, I mean the innocence, that was my job. But when we got married, my husband family super entrepreneurial, my family was not. My dad was like that that life scares me had a really good job he provided very well. My mom was a stay at home mom. We had a large family, grew up in a household of six kids. We have six kids, so there’s a lot of parallels there. But when we got married my husband had a job that allowed him and me to like kind of help out. So I always was kind of the facilitator and a lot of ways I liked that role and so we worked together and he was home and I loved that, like you know, just together, families together, all the time. And as we started having kids, like it wasn’t up until a couple years into our marriage that he actually like went out and got a job.
Kevin King:
So this is e-commerce stuff you’re doing from home.
Elizabeth:
So he did. He did brick and mortar. I mean, like his family has had everything from like running a pet store to selling sheds and use cars like he grew up selling used cars. He’s so smart and he’ll call things all the time Like I’ll talk to somebody and they’ll be like oh, we have all these things. And he’s like no, it’s not. I’m like Are you serious? Like I’m a take everyone at their word, like everything’s super rosy, this is super awesome type person and he’s. He’s not a pessimist, he’s more of a realist and I’m more of a new rose colored glasses kind of person. So that that’s been a learning curve for me as well.
Kevin King:
But we went out. He was working from home, as you’re having starting to have your to create your family, and then he went out. And then what did you do? Did you just stay? Does that when you evolved into?
Elizabeth:
Yeah. So I was at home for a long time and that was something that was a discussion we had long before we got married. You know the whole discussion of what kind of kids, you know. What do you want our family, what do you want this to look like? I had always wanted that life stayed home on my life, but when he had him going to work on like for the first time, I’m like he’s not home Like this. This sucks, this is this is what everybody does. But I don’t want it.
And you know, through the years he had different vacations, most of the time with family. I think they would change different businesses and stuff. So on the back half of it leading up to this, I was in the background constantly looking for ways to do a stay at home gig, which that led, of course, to Amazon being one thing. This was, you know, back in still like the teens, like early teens, and so we kind of started up like, oh, there’s this thing called reach, our arbitrage. So I like drag all the children to like and start scanning stuff.
Kevin King:
Oh really, you’re packing them all in the car and go into the dollar store. Yeah.
Elizabeth:
I want to say I was still. So this leading up to it was still very like small potatoes, let’s see if this will kind of work. So, like trying a whole bunch of random stuff, like can I sell print on demand cards on Etsy? Like, can I do that? It wasn’t, there was never anything that was like a huge buckle down, like these things work. I think all of these, you know, retail arbitrage still works, Private label obviously still works, Like we’re working for people who are making it work.
But so that led us into the Amazon world, which, of course, then led us to doing Amazon advertising. And then when I got into it, funny enough, I never considered myself like a super data person, where now I would get like what I do is super data driven. But I was like, oh, these things are interesting. And I just like I liked how the you would try and figure out how to make the mechanics work.
And because it was in the beginning and we were, you know, didn’t have a lot of capital to invest in, you know, maybe hiring somebody to do it for us, or back then there was some like yeah, there was a, there was a good amount of advertising automations, but they, you know, obviously cost money. So like, oh well, I can figure this out. And so it was a lot of like downloading a whole bunch of reports, like, oh well, this data source is here and they just really digging into it and trying to do a lot of things really scrappy, which I look back on and I’m like I went through a lot more pain than I needed to, but on the flip side, like coming out of it, I think everything has kind of always compounded. So even though if I feel like I’ve wasted a lot of time like how many times you take on it and learn about it.
It’s actually been really good. So I have conversations now with people who are like data analysts or you know, like really professional people like, oh, I can understand, like okay, so this, yeah, that’s why this number looks like this. Or I can now go in and read, you know, like documentation on things, like okay, so that’s how this thing processes and like it connects with this, and that’s how these two data sources are different, because it was just a whole bunch of me like downloading a whole bunch of spreadsheets and trying to like compile and make sense of everything. So it’s been good.
Kevin King:
So did you do after arbitrage? Did you actually do a little bit of private label dabbling there?
Elizabeth:
So we did a little bit of private label, which wound down because I got pregnant again and so, and that one was twins, which was a little bit much.
On the morning sickness, it was pretty much double the morning sickness, double the baby’s, double the morning sickness, and so that kind of was like I just didn’t have, I couldn’t function If we all ate. It was a good day, so there was only so much I had time for and or like the help, not help, that wasn’t unhealthy, but it was just a lot to deal with, and so that kind of one down and then trying to get back into it. You know, getting back into the Facebook groups, there was a lot of people like, oh, this question or that question. I’m like, oh, I don’t know the answer to that question, and so here’s the answer, that question. I remember having like really long discussion threads about things you know people, and then eventually that led to me be like, hey, do you do this? And like, well, I know how to, and so that it’s just kind of kept going from there. Essentially.
Kevin King:
So that’s when, like around or so, right, you started jungler yeah, yeah, it’s around that point. It’s you and you have a partner, or it’s.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, my husband technically co-founder.
Kevin King:
What did you come up with? A name jungler.
Elizabeth:
That was his idea and he was looking around and I think it has some interesting meaning that’s attached to gaming of some sort. I don’t know. It sounded cool and the domain name was available and it’s a short domain name.
Kevin King:
Cool, and so you started out, did you? What did your first clients come from? Yeah, so from Facebook groups just people that saw you posting and they’re like hey, you seem to know what you’re talking about. Can you, can you do this for us?
Elizabeth:
Yeah, and so, for context, back then the conversations that we’re having like this was right before, slightly before the auto campaigns, we got separate targeting types for the autos. I remember when that like blew everyone’s mind. So the conversations that were happening were still do I need to run PVC? Where these days the conversations are how do I do it? So it was a little bit different. Like there’s still people trying to like, dip their toes in and like do I even need this? Because there’s still the search for my buys were still a thing, so people could still get up to it. You know, page one using those. No one was getting shut down for that just yet.
Kevin King:
So the advertising it’s come a long ways. I mean, I started selling FBA in and it was. I don’t even know. I think it might. I can’t remember exactly when it launched. It’s somewhere around that timeframe. It’s when it launched and it was rudimentary. It was like super, super basic, and then, around , , they started adding some stuff to it. Now it’s gotten super sophisticated.
Elizabeth:
So back then.
Kevin King:
I used to tell people you don’t need an agency, it’s mindless, just do it yourself. I mean, can you add two plus two as long as you don’t get six, six when you add two plus two, then you’ll be okay. But now it’s gotten so. There’s so many variables and so many things. It’s almost. Google has always been way advanced when it comes to advertising over Amazon, and Amazon is not quite at Google’s level yet, but it’s rapidly getting there.
Elizabeth:
No, it’s getting there and I think they’re definitely gunning to be for sure.
Kevin King:
I mean, when you look at their numbers and Amazon’s making , was it , billion dollars in?
Elizabeth:
profits on the.
Kevin King:
PPC side of things. I mean, I just saw some figure I think it was recently there was half over half of Amazon’s profits don’t come from selling products. They come from the fulfillment fees, commissions and PPC. That’s where their money’s in. They’re in the service business, they’re on the product selling business.
Elizabeth:
No, no, that’s definitely for sure. You can tell by how much the they really started putting resources into their ad platform, and then you know we thought they had crazy rollouts back then, and now the amount of rollouts on new features is constant, it seems.
Kevin King:
So what? What has you seen? The biggest challenge that’s happened over the last five years when it comes to PPC Is it just keeping up with the latest changes? Is it the complexity, Is it the cost or so rising that you really got to get a much better handle on it Now, what are you seeing as the biggest challenges from five years ago to today?
Elizabeth:
Yeah, I would definitely say. If you ask the average seller, their answer is probably going to be the rising costs of the advertising. As somebody who’s deep in the weeds, I would say it’s probably like you said, that the potential complexities that they’re being introduced so, for instance, like with Broad Match has since gotten an update and sponsored product ads that completely changes the search terms that targets. That one was kind of through everyone in the industry for a loop.
Kevin King:
Can you explain that to people that might not understand what that was? What happened?
Elizabeth:
Yeah. So if you are familiar with the way Broad Match works in historically and sponsored brand ads and honestly I believe that Broad Match works this way in Google ads as well it’s essentially so. If you, if you classic, you know like OG Amazon advertiser, you would know that if you advertise using a Broad Match keyword, that each individual word that’s in your keyword that you have, for instance, like running shoes, is one I give all the time. You know, if you’d be like men’s running shoes, women’s running, but running and shoes have to be there, or like shoes running for kids, I mean like that would.
Kevin King:
There’s also two words are in there somewhere, right as long as there’s two words are in there, yeah.
Elizabeth:
Right, you’re good, they change that. And the one that honestly kind of gets me if we’re being perfectly frank here is that the fact that they didn’t. Now they’re historically slow to notify us of updates. So most times like if you’re listening to anyone who’s in the know, you’re going to know way before Amazon puts out, like you know, some sort of update or training on their new features. But there was no, there was no updates, there was no training plan, there was no nothing.
How this was found was that a bunch of us were in the search term reports all the time, were like wait a minute, this doesn’t make any sense. So, for instance, running shoes now, as long as the algorithm deems that the search term is quote related to your keyword, meaning like so running shoes might trigger someone like running shoes, like trainers or sneakers or something that’s like yeah, I can get how those two can kind of connect. You know, maybe it’s the same audience that now can be triggered through a broad match. And all of us were like in the search room was like wait, this shouldn’t be here, this doesn’t make any sense. And so we’re all like when something like this happens, like all of us people who are like knee deep in the advertising loop.
We have our connections and other like agency founders and stuff, and I’m like wait, you guys seeing this? That like, yeah, what, I’m seeing this in mind, and so we’re all like collaborating, like trying to figure out what the heck is going on. And everyone’s like I and so anyone who had access to a rep or somebody internal on Amazon was like reaching out, like do you get? Like is this, is this an update? Because, like we couldn’t find anything anywhere. There’s no updates and all that and none of us got an answer. People will be like, yeah, we’ll get back to you. And like there was, and we’re like you guys made this massive change as it completely changes. Like the search terms we’re triggering are like exponential now through our broad match and this like really is a huge thing, and all that happened was there was a very quiet update to the explanation page for match shapes.
So now if you go and read it, it’s, it’s updated and we’re like okay, okay.
Kevin King:
Wow, so how. I’ve just read something recently, though, speaking on the three match types. There’s that there’s broad phrase and exact for those of you that may not understand when it comes to match typing as of right now, but with the new AI changes that they came out with us, I covered this in my newsletter a while back. With it, in my scientific paper that was presented in a big technical conference in Japan, amazon said that there’s gonna be switching the way everything works at some point. It could be this year, it could be next year we’re not sure when this is going to happen, but basically, the whole search algorithm is going to change to more AI based and where you’re not going to need the three different types of keywords types anymore. It’s just going to be one type and Amazon’s just going to know that, based on AI data and based on past history. This is what we should serve up, versus having to go in and us tell it what we want to serve up and then trying to guess and doing some combinations.
Everything, I think, is going to radically change. It’s going to be interesting to see how that affects PPC or how much they will let it, since PPC is such a major revenue source for them. How much will they let it actually change PPC? It’s almost like one of those things Do you want to really want to use the latest technology and make it better for the customer and maybe shoot yourself in the foot on advertising revenue, or just want to leave something that works alone? It’s going to be interesting to see. Do you have any thoughts on? Are you following any of that, or do you have any thoughts on any of that?
Elizabeth:
So my thoughts. I like keeping an ear to the ground on these things and trying to puzzle out how it’s going to affect what I can do. There was a lot of people, so there’s a lot of people wondering about. With the new.
They’re saying that they’re going to roll out the options for sponsored products to now show up off platform and none of us know how that’s going to work or that’s going to perform and everyone is like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? My thesis on like a what am I to answer? The what am I going to do question is I have no idea. There’s only. So, on, like I’m going to be here and I’m going to swing with the platform and I’m going to do what is within my power to do so. With that off platform advertising, will they give us maybe like placement adjustments for off platform and allow us to start tweaking things? That would be nice.
Kevin King:
Or even to choose the platform. Maybe you don’t want to be on Pinterest. Maybe you don’t want to be on which some of the other ones you know, because it’s not your target audience or right.
Elizabeth:
Right, but what are what are they going to allow us to do? So my, my thoughts are let’s wait and see. Let’s see what our options are, let’s read the data and, at the very end of the day, we have our bid as a control, as much as that kind of in a lot of ways, as a really sucky control. It is a point of control. So I’m on a way to see what happens. And as far as my personal preferences, I mean, like, if anyone in Amazon is watching, I loved the way that they rolled out the extensions to ace and targeting. That was great.
So before we used to just have like one, you know, you target an ace, and now we have the option of an exact or an expanded ace and targeting, but the way that it was rolled out, it didn’t affect anything that was currently running my sort of issues with a lot of the most recent rollouts. Is it something that completely changes a lot of our current campaign structures? Because, like with the broad match, now we’re targeting all of these random things or sponsor brands. Exact match now can also target related keywords. Like exact match historically has been used to like. I want to only show up in this position and I’m going to have a lot of control.
There is now not all that much control when it comes to that targeting and that completely changes a lot of our strategy around that, like in existing campaigns. So I like the new features when I when I can elect to use them or not use them, or like set up additional campaigns and sort of like. Oh yeah, let’s go test this cool new thing and let’s see how it works for the account. With a lot of the current updates, it’s like, hey, here’s an update that’s going to change everything you’ve already built. Have fun. Okay, now I just got to figure it out. I mean which we figure it out and consequently, it’s not like anything is completely exploded. We’re not seeing like, oh my gosh crazy a cost, you know, absolutely exponential overnight. It’s just, it’s just a point of annoyance.
Kevin King:
So what’s the what is that? For those that don’t maybe haven’t realized what’s the difference between the old ace in targeting, where you could pick like your competitors or pick complimentary items, and now the expanded. What’s what’s the expanded actually add to it?
Elizabeth:
Yeah, so expanded allows Amazon’s to go out and find related or what they deem as related products, similar to the one that you are advertising against, which is honestly a really great keyword research tool. Like I, I do love it. But so, for instance, if I found a competitor and I’m like I want to dominate this you know this competitor search page like I just want to show up everywhere, I’m going to use exact match because within my exact match, I know that this is the place that I am paying to show up. So if I’m going to say, set a very aggressive bid on it, I know that I’m setting an aggressive bid for this specific placement. So it gives me a lot of controls where I dictate to funnel a lot of my ad spend.
If I’m doing an expanded, amazon’s going to go and say like oh, we think this product’s like this one and this product’s like this one and this product’s like this one and we could perform well on those search pages, but we don’t know. So if we’re going to get a really aggressive with our ad spend, we’re essentially getting aggressive in a whole bunch of different places versus just being super strategic. So it’s a really great tool and again it’s, you now can say hey, I want to do this or I want to do that, and your old, you know traditional ascent targeting that you have is all in exact match. That’s like the traditional how we all knew it function. And they’re like oh, here’s this other cool option. I’m like great, let me use it.
Kevin King:
How do you decide what to target when you’re doing ascent, targeting is a major part of your strategy and I mean I’ve used it. I haven’t I’m sure I’d have nowhere near the experience you have with it, but I’ve used it to where, if I’m launching a product, I’ll either try to go in a complimentary product or, if it’s a competitor, if I have a better rating or more reviews or maybe a more competitive price, I’ll go on them. And I also use it sometimes when I see other people launching that are either complimentary to me or or similar to me and I’ll target them to actually steal their traffic. I’ll go in. Actually they’re. They’re spending money. Maybe they’re still doing a search find by you’re not supposed to anymore, but maybe they’re still doing that. They’re doing heavy advertising and driving traffic to their listing with three reviews and they probably have a ridiculous tacos and a cost and everything and. But I’m like, if I’m on there and they drive the traffic to it, I’ve got mine with reviews and . star rating and they have three reviews. I can steal a bunch of that away and so I’ll just piggyback off of theirs.
Some people think that’s mean to do that. I showed that. I talked about that once in a presentation on stage and someone came up to me afterwards like that’s really rude and that’s really mean. I’m like this business. What is your strategy when it comes?
Elizabeth:
to their right. So, regardless if you’re snagging it or if another competitor snagging it, somebody snagging it might as well.
Kevin King:
I mean, that’s my thoughts on the matter.
Elizabeth:
But yeah, so I would say that this is a very similar strategy to what we use and I mean we’ve had that we’re competitors have tried to go after us. Right, you know they’re like oh, you know they’re the, they’re the og on the block, like I’m going to get in, the like fine, you know we’ve got a catalog, let’s play. You know like let’s work. Or we’re getting every single spot on your detail page and blocking. You know doing the whole defensive strategy where we’re trying to plug our own that spots. I mean you can get some really creative things with product targeting.
I will say like there is this thought process I don’t think among true experts, but in the general talk in the community that like everyone has to run exact match ranking campaigns for targeting and then like not okay, don’t quote me on that and say like I think that’s a bad strategy. It’s a very good strategy If you’re trying to rank. That is the strategy to go after. But there seems to be this tendency to like completely discount all the other add types, including like product targeting. You’ll see, and if you go into any form or somewhere, someone’s like how can I stop showing up on product pages I only want to show up on top of search, like top of search is like the only placement worth anything.
I would say that’s not true. To me it’s like it’s an and strategy, like I don’t know why we have to have any either, or like give me an ant. So we’ve had some instances where we did, because we’ll do product targeting out of the gate a lot of times and really great strategy is to go and find all of the products that are ranking well on the keywords or the search pages that you want to rank on and go and target those ascent sound depending on how you stack up against them. You know you might not have the greatest performance, but we actually are able to get several Amazon choice budgets strictly through product targeting. So they do work and they do add someone to the algorithm as far as, like Amazon, recognizing that you convert well on specific search pages.
Kevin King:
Because you get love. I mean, if someone types in a search for dog bowl and they, they go into your competitors product and you’re you’re doing product targeting and you actually end up stealing the sale away, you actually get credit for the word dog bowl, whatever they originally searched for, it passes through.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, definitely does.
Kevin King:
Yeah. So what about launching? What are some of the? When it comes to launching now on Amazon, a lot of people there’s some people say you got to just go crazy on the PPC. What are your strategies? Like you tell your clients, ok, you got to go and get. First go get some reviews from buying and then we’ll run PPC. Or do you just run it out of the gate and just have like % a cost while you’re figuring stuff out? What’s the best way to actually use PPC when it comes to actually launching a brand spanking new product?
Elizabeth:
Yeah Well, I’m definitely. We definitely run it without the reviews. You can do that. What I always coach people on asking in the beginning is what is your budget? Let me? Let me clarify that. When I say what is your budget, what can you afford, I’m not a huge fan of these blanket.
Here’s the you know, three types of campaigns you have to run and here’s the absolute, like exact, budget that you have to have. No, don’t get me wrong, I have. I think I have some videos out there. I should put some videos out about, like how to essentially like calculate the advertising spend needed to rank on specific keywords, like looking at your cost per clicks and etc. Like there’s mathematical ways to figure out some stuff.
But what I find with like these here’s a blanket strategy, you must set your campaign budgets to X is what happens is new sellers get in there and they will be like oh, everyone told me I have to run the super aggressive strategy. And then they’ll run it and they’ll look at the ad spend and they’ll be like oh my gosh, I’m spending $ a day. I can’t do this. And then they’ll go and turn it off and like you could have taken that $ and you could have spread it out across the month If you looked out and said, okay, what can I afford and what keyword ranking strategy fits in my budget. So for an ad.
Kevin King:
How fast are you trying to rank?
Elizabeth:
right and how, and then just taking a look at the pros and cons, so like, if you want to rank a lot faster, you are going to need excessive sales velocity. Ads can get you that sales velocity at a cost, obviously, and don’t expect to be profitable out of the gate, like you’re saying, like really high costs, depending on how your conversion rates. So, honestly, how good your product launch goes is honestly determined in your product selection stage. Like, if you have good product selection and you are introducing something that the market actually wants to buy and you’ve discovered a niche that is somewhat underserved in the market, your launch you’re going to get to profitably so much faster than if you’re just like another Me Too product and you slapped a logo and you’re like, ah, it’s good, the listing’s fine. Like you know, I just got some random guy off Fiverr to do it. Like there’s good people on Fiverr, don’t get me wrong but like if you’re not really like, okay, how do I make this good, how do I make it appeal to the market? What are people actually willing to spend on these things? I see too many times people like with their spreadsheets, like, all right, I spent this, I did this, you know, I did this and so therefore, my price must be X and I’m like that’s cool, except for the price in your market is $ cheaper than that. And so I got product research like good sourcing and all that. That. That’s actually going to help your strategy along.
Specifically as far as what to go after in the beginning, the one thing that we found works time and time again is focusing in on relevancy of keywords, and actually if you go and look at product opportunity explore I just put out a newsletter myself I think it was like two weeks ago talking about actually, if you go into product opportunity explore, it’s super interesting. You will find keywords, if you go broad enough, that Amazon is saying the conversion rate is zero, and actually that’s why I put out that newsletter was because there’s some people like conversion rate is zero and going back to like reading documentation, it turns out that that’s search volume conversion rate. So Amazon’s essentially giving you in product opportunity explore. Hey, what is the conversion rate of people who are shopping?
Not like your conversion rate for the specific product, just people who are generally shopping using the search phrase how, what percentage of them are buying, and I’m sure the conversion rate isn’t zero, but it goes to like, I think, one decimal point percentage. I’m sorry if you extrapolated it out. There’s like a fraction of a percent or something, but what you find is that the more specific the search is, so for engines I think it was like baby items or, you know, like baby gifts or something like the search volume conversion rate is like really, really low, because people are typing it in, getting interdated with like different products like oh wait, no, I really wanted a blanket. And then they’ll go back and they’ll type in something else in search.
So what you find is that the more specific you get to the exact products, the higher the search volume. Conversion rate is meaning if somebody is searching for something specific, they’re probably actually looking to buy it. So if you can show up on the search pages which again something that resonates with that market that people actually want to buy, you’re going to make a lot better conversions. And you know, conversions equal sales.
Kevin King:
So do you think people should? If they’re in a highly competitive niche where there’s maybe three or four keywords that get a lot of searches and they’re just super competitive the people that are ranking there have lots of reviews or really good ratings or are spending a lot of money should they actually incorporate those keywords into their listing and then actually go after some of the more low lying fruit in the beginning that’s maybe not as competitive. That way they can kind of build a little history with Amazon built and they hopefully build up a few reviews before going after those you know, those big golden keywords, so to speak, or something. Do you think a lot of people make a mistake by trying to go all in too fast?
Elizabeth:
Yes, yes, I definitely do. I think that’s a great strategy. Honestly, the hardest products to rank are the ones where the search volume is concentrated on, say, two keywords and there’s just nothing else to go after. In those cases, like you’re kind of stuck, you just you’re not going to get enough shopper search eyes to be able on any other long tail keywords. But if you have the ability to it, then yes, definitely niche down Now what we like.
So I’ve done in certain situations. Like we had a client who launched a product. There was a lot of very relevant, more specific searches that we could go after and there was one like really major keyword had a heck of a lot of search volume on it. What we did is we created like a single keyword exact match campaign. Because I was looking at his listing and I was looking at the competition and there was really only one brand dominating the market and I was looking at his listings and I was looking at the competitor listings. I’m like you know what, like he did a really good job differentiating. His price point is really good. He sourced very well. I have a feeling that we maybe could compete here.
So if you have that kind of if you want test it, test it for two days. So that’s what we did. We put an exact match. We you can put a budget cap right. So you’re like I’m willing to spend , you know, maybe go up to , $, but I’m willing to spend this per day just to test, like, can I get any conversions on this keyword? And when we did that, you know like the conversions were great and actually because he converted some, well, the ACOS was phenomenal within targets on the main keyword. I’m like, okay, great, positive shopper signals increase the budget. If we didn’t have those positive shopper signals, all right, great, we did the test, pause it and let’s move on to something else.
Kevin King:
What’s it? What’s an ACOS? Or maybe you go I don’t know if you go by ACOS or Tacos or ROAS, but what’s a? What metric do you use? Okay, we’ll accept, or maybe it’s sometimes client dependent, but kind of just as a rule of thumb, what do you say should be your launch? Maybe the first month you’re willing to accept this much that, as long as you’re seeing progress. The second month, this and the ultimate goal after six months is to be at whatever %, tacos or whatever. What are your kind of benchmarks that you like to go by?
Elizabeth:
Yeah, no, that’s a good question. Honestly, it’s a little bit hard to determine. As far as, like ACOS, we say, like our goal in the very beginning is always to say, can we hit, break even? But on launch, especially if you have no reviews whatsoever, my goal is just to say, can we get conversions, like, can we even get sales? Right? That’s my first goal. And then to say, can we find any search pages where we can get conversions on? And then we can worry about the adjustments.
And then going back to like setting budgets for launch, right, because if I just said, like can we get conversions anywhere, and I’m like that could equal a whole lot of ads, but if you don’t have that cap of like, all right, I’ve already kind of defined budget going into this. So that’s kind of how we approach it. As far as the total ACOS numbers like those ones you look at versus profitability, right, because there’s there’s some categories where they’re they’re super competitive. So maybe you have to get a little bit more wiggle room on your total ACOS numbers. But that being said, I mean if you have a total ACOS that’s above your profit margins, like you’re losing money just to sell on Amazon, so like why would you ever do that? So there has to be some balance there.
Kevin King:
So when someone’s launching a new product and they have, like a, they tell you my budget’s $ a day, let’s say, for the product. Maybe when they’re doing their analysis before they launch this product, how can they should be figuring out, cannot even compete at $ a day. And so how do you calculate what? Or I know it’s complex, but what’s just a general concept of how you calculate? What does it take to actually rank on, you know, the top three or top five spots or whatever the number is for this keyword, if you’re going to launch it, if I’m looking at launching a new dog wall and it’s a slow feed dog wall, how do I know? Okay, I’m going to launch this dog wall.
I know I’ve done all my homework, I got a great listing, I got all this done. It’s a great product, everything is perfect on that side. Now I’m going to go launch it. My budget’s $ a day because that’s what I have. But maybe I can’t even compete at $ a day because the clicks when you look at the numbers the clicks are, you know it’s going to cost me this much just to get ranked on these three keywords. How do you figure out what that number is and can you even be competitive and maybe I shouldn’t be launching this slow feed dog wall. Should be looking at something else because I don’t have the budget.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, no, it’s actually pretty easy. So the reason why these things are super variable, what I’m going to tell you is a very rough way to forwardcast it and it’s based on things that we’re making educated guests on. The educated guests is being the actual cost per click you’re paying and your conversion rate. If you had a definite knowledge of what your cost per click was going to be and you had a definite knowledge of what your conversion rate was going to be, you’d be golden Okay.
Kevin King:
Yeah, those are the magic ticket.
Elizabeth:
Yeah. So what you need to do is you need to figure out on average, how many daily sales do I need to rank on this keyword? We can roughly use helium tens. What is it? There’s CPR number, the eight-day giveaway. You want to add some padding to this?
I also like to calculate what these numbers would be and then what they would be, super pessimistically so, if I had to add additionally to this right. So I say, okay, this is how many orders I need to make. Now I can take my, how many orders I need to make. And then I need to know how many clicks on average Is it going to take me to make one order and how you would calculate this is you’re going to get your estimated conversion rates. Be pessimistic here. Everyone wants to be like, yeah, I’m going to hit a % conversion, like, go super pessimistic, okay, just, you have no reviews, you’re assuming right, but you would take your average, do what you’re expecting conversion rate is, and you can take one divided by whatever the you know in a decimal version of your conversion rate would be, and that’s going to give you how many clicks on average. It makes me, it takes me to generate.
Kevin King:
How do I determine that number? Is it category dependent, like it’s a one out of , one out of , one out of?
Elizabeth:
Yeah, so I think it’s category dependent. Averages, rough averages I heard were like slightly below %. I would say, if you are in clothing, if you have anything that’s just super style dependent, where people get like super nitpicky on, oh that’s the wrong shade of blue, like go super, super pessimistic, I would expect % would be good. Like a sub % is probably average if you’re looking at clothing, Unless you are selling licensed products and you have a brand name associated with it.
Kevin King:
That’s one out of . So %, one out of .
Elizabeth:
Right. So if I said okay, so it takes me clicks on average to make an order, and then we’ve calculated how many orders it’s most likely going to take me per day to rank on this keyword, I can take how many orders multiplied by how many clicks. So we’re just going to do super rough math because it’s hard for me to math on the fly. So if we say clicks on average and let’s just say two orders because it’s a non value keyword, right, so that is clicks.
So it’s going to take me clicks a day to be able to generate the order volume to rank. Now what we need to do is we need to go and find our what we’re expected our average cost per click would be. Again, go super pessimistic here. Helium has. They have their Amazon’s recommended bid. Those are pulled directly from the API. Amazon will give you the recommended bits in the API.
Kevin King:
What’s that recommended bid based on? Is that middle of the pack? Is that to win it? Is that an average of what people are spending, or what were that? Yes?
Elizabeth:
You know, if you go into the ad console and you look at the recommended bids like if you put in a keyword in your ad, like Amazon will give you kind of like the recommended bid range. You can read that. A good benchmark I’ve heard if you want to get aggressive is to go, say, % above the highest average recommended bid, which on some keywords can be super high. Again, amazon is doing their best to calculate what they think you will pay. You’re really not going to get your true numbers until, like, you actually launch these campaigns.
which is why I’m saying like, go pessimistic, because you’ll probably plug this in for one keyword and be like, oh my gosh, the spend is way more than I thought. Right, but if I know it’s going to average, take me clicks to make these two sales, then I can say, okay, it’s going to take me let’s just again, let’s be super average say a dollar a click to be able to generate this. It’s going to take me $ to make these two sales to rank on this keyword. Is this keyword worth it $ a day? And then I say, okay, I have a dollar. You know I have a budget. Okay, there’s of my . Where else can I rank on it?
Kevin King:
Cool. What are like three categories that you see with all your clients are just like crazy competitive to compete in. You’re like man, this stuff is just getting out of control on what people are going to spend here.
Elizabeth:
I mean definitely supplements. Supplements is a classic. Supplements and anything electronics is very hard. Those ones are specifically hard because conversion rates can be really tricky, like certain categories. I mean you hear people the time. They’re like, oh my gosh, look at the volume on like wireless Bluetooth headphones. I’m like nobody trusts anything outside of the name brands. I mean, let’s be honest, I went to shop or wireless headphones the other day. I’m like does this stuff really work? And I’m like well, I know these other ones, at least you know they have a name brand behind them.
I’m sure they’re going to work. I think all of us have been burned too much by like really hokey electronics before. They were a little bit pessimistic when it comes to that and it depends, right. So I’m talking about more like specific electronics. If you had some sort of like widget with a specific function that has electronics on it, it may or may not really matter. Also, anything that has like a lot of hype around it.
So if you’re trying to sell like Jade face rollers, good luck. I mean, there’s only so much differentiation the market cares about that’s. The other thing is some people will get you know, they’ll do all this product research and be like oh my gosh, there’s this really cool add on that I think can improve it. There’s certain categories like you might find something super cool, but how well it converts against what’s already on the market is going to be dependent on how much the market actually cares about that update. So you’re like oh, look at my Jade roller and you know I have the. Whatever the face stone is, it’s got this little bit different shape. But if the market’s like I already know this one and I like it, like they don’t really care.
Kevin King:
What about what would be like a third one? So it’s supplements.
Elizabeth:
Electronics would be like pets, or pet, pet supplement I mean that’s still supplements, but honestly, pet supplements can be difficult. Also, sometimes I don’t know if it’s a super high search volume though, but there are certain like consumer good categories because of, like, the repurchase nature. There are some brands who are just willing to pay out the out the nose because they realize that lifetime value of somebody is it’s pretty significant, so cost per clicks can get pretty crazy there, cool.
Kevin King:
Are there any times a client comes to you and you just look at them, go no, no, no, I’m not, no, sorry, we’re not, you’re not the agency for you. Does that happen? Sometimes it does, it does.
Elizabeth:
And I think it’s more. It’s a lot of times more, because I care about trying to make sure I do right. So if you come to me with, like detail pages that haven’t been updated in like two years, I’m probably going to say, hey, why don’t you go get those checked out before we sign on? Now I’ll assign on clients who, like have detailed pages that don’t work. They’re like all right, you know, like we want to push this product. We know we want to push this product. We want to push this product. We want to push this product. We know the digital pages are crap. Like don’t throw money at this.
Okay, so here’s what we’re working on, like those kind of engagements, totally good, as long as you’re aware of it and you’re working on it, we’re golden. But I’ve found for me, in kind of getting to be the gatekeeper of who we work with now it has been a lot more focused around the types of brand owners. And I find that the types of brand owners because, honestly, we’re interested in long term engagements. We’re in a month to month with all of our clients. But, that being said, like so that means I got to do right by you. So if I got to do right by you. That means I want to work with somebody who I know I can get good results for, and the clients who come to us is seeing everything as sort of a challenge to be overcome versus something that’s happening to them. I find that that is quite a big determiner of success long term.
Kevin King:
on Amazon, well, a lot of people are really high on the data that they’re giving you now is the search query performance report and people are saying that’s like the golden ticket now, if you know how to analyze that and download that and overlap it and do you know? Some people create sophisticated like spreadsheets and air tables and like all this stuff. What are your thoughts around that? No, I absolutely love it.
Elizabeth:
And that was actually the whole subject of a collab call we did with a group that we have of like top Amazon advertisers, which is trying to dig into that. So I would agree with you it’s a wealth of information and never before have we had information on a search term level, and I think that’s why what blew everyone’s minds is like you can do it. What blew everyone’s minds is like you can see how you’re stacking up against your competition on a per search term basis, which is an amazing for my larger brains out there. I sympathize with you.
The things that are kind of an obnoxious about this report is when it’s not available in the API. When it’s available in the API, I’m going to be one happy girl because we can like pull it at mass. So you have to physically download reports, which, across large catalogs, can be difficult, and you also have to download it on a per child ascent level, which is fine up until you get into large variation products like clothing. We deal a lot with clothing. I can’t download those report times every week for one product Like let’s just be honest, I can’t.
So I mean you can like check bestseller, the one that has, like the most information on it, so that there are still insights you can pull out. I find that it’s much easier to really use it at scale for smaller accounts and larger accounts. But, that being said, we’re still constantly analyzing it and, especially if you’re trying to figure out, is this a good search page for me to invest a lot of add dollars on it? Search query report.
Kevin King:
Is there something? If Amazon’s listening to this, if there’s something like hey, amazon, I wish you would do this. Obviously, you said one of them there with the API for the search query performance report. But is there something else? Man, I just wish we had this, or Amazon just gave us this data. We could just do so much more for our clients.
Elizabeth:
Add spend on a per product level in sponsored brand ads please, amazon. I’m begging you.
Kevin King:
Add spend on a per product level for sponsored brand ads.
Elizabeth:
We got it for sponsored products and we got it for sponsored display. So for anyone out there listening know that any of your tools and we use one who calculates it, so no hate against the calculations. Like you got to do what you got to do to figure it out there is no way to accurately get total ACOS if you have high sponsored brand ad spend for your products. There’s just not.
Kevin King:
How’s sponsored video doing these days compared to the sponsored display and the sponsored ads and the other different types of placements? What do you find is where people should kind of be focused in there, or DSP even, where so many different options now we’re if you had to pick like two someone’s new and just kind of they’re all a little bit more. Limited budget can’t just do everything. Where should they focus their energies.
Elizabeth:
I would still say definitely sponsored product ads. I don’t think we’re ever going to move past a majority of the account being in sponsored product ads. Maybe I’ll eat my words in a year or two, but I would say I don’t think so. Just due to the nature of search pages and shopper search behavior, I still think that’s going to be a high volume mover. That being said, if you are in sponsored product ads and you’re looking to move outside of that, look at your sponsored product search term reports. That’s going to give you so much wealth of knowledge as to which search pages you can then use to expand out into other ad types. That’s going to work really well for you. If you have the video ads, if you have the video ad creatives, I would definitely run those and I would look into my search term reports. What’s already working? What search pages am I already crushing it on? Let me just add in this other additional ad type with sponsored brand’s video.
Kevin King:
Is there a certain type of video ads that you’re seeing work better? A lot of people have video, but the video may suck. It doesn’t capture the attention in the first two seconds or it doesn’t really show the differences or the highlights of the product. Is there something that, man, if you do these couple things in your video? Every time I see someone do this they’re just crushing it.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, anything that grabs attention. I will say we pulled and this was a little while back, I probably should do it again but we pulled all of the video ad data for all of our clients across everywhere just to see what’s crushing it, what’s not crushing it, what can we learn. Honestly, it wasn’t a lot. There was only one takeaway I found, but it was pretty good. When I looked at everything, I was like okay, so what’s converting? I was looking at conversion rates and click the rates what’s working the best, and then what’s working the worst and then looking at those ad creatives and be like what’s different. The only real thing I could take away from that was that the video ads that work best are the ones that bring the product into focus. On the first slide, this was illustrated really well, but actually it’s the same account. They had a jewelry brand right, they had one. They’re both necklaces. One video ad was crushing it and the other one wasn’t. I was like what’s the difference here? In the first video ad, the one that was working really well, conversion rate was great, performance was stellar. The first frame was a close up of the necklace Immediately the necklace in focus. I knew what the product was, it was all good. The other one had the mod and she was still wearing the necklace, but the necklace was not the focal point.
You saw the model first. You’re scrolling past it, You’re going ah, so I’m searching for a woman’s necklace. Is that the one I wanted Were in the first video. You would be like oh yeah, that’s the exact type I’m looking for. Okay, that’s what I want. The second video was like oh, there’s this ambiguous scene. Maybe it’s the mom pulling the blanket somewhere or doing something. You’re like is it the blanket? Is it the couch cover? I don’t know what this thing is versus the videos that are like oh, here is the, and it can still be in motion, it can still be visually appealing, but I know what product is being advertised. At least having that in your opening scene and then anything that’s eye catching. So movement is always super good.
Kevin King:
So as an agency, I mean you said that your agency is month to month, but your goal is to keep people long term, but you give them that option.
There’s a lot of people out there that bounce agency to agency, you know, and you’ll hear words that, oh, this agency sucks. And then the next person like, no, they’re killing it for us. And then they just bounce and they bounce and they bounce. What sets apart, what makes a good agency? There’s tons of them out there, but what makes a good agency when someone’s evaluating what everybody almost all of them say?
Elizabeth:
we’ll do a free audit and we’ll make some suggestions and do this but what actually truly makes a good agency, and when it comes to PPC, so this is what I’ve been currently coaching my team a lot on, because I think this is what makes a pretty good account manager an absolute rock star is the ability to analyze the data and be able to tell a story from it and be able to take the analytics and directly translate that into action items. That’s what happens on the back end. As far as from a client perspective, it’s being able to have someone that you can collaborate with and who you feel is truly invested in your brand. That’s my opinion on I’m looking back on everyone who you know we have really good long term relationships with. It’s that I found actually as much as a lot of new advertisers think they’re being helpful whenever an agency is like, oh, here’s this keyword list, here’s this thing, I want you to focus on this. They’re like oh yeah, I’m going to do this, let me do this, let me do this, let me do this. And then, for everyone listening who is an aspiring account manager, the only thing clients care about is performance and if you’re doing right by their brands meaning if you execute everything, an agency owner is telling you but at the end of the month, their sales went down and their performance is not good at the ads, they’re not going to care, because you’ll be like I did everything you told me and they’re going to be like I’m paying you to tell me no when something’s a stupid idea because you’re supposed to be the expert.
So, being able to have that collaborative, like we have clients all the time they’re like, hey, you know, let’s. Oh, we want to launch this keyword, we want you to test this keyword. So there’s one account where we did some of those tasks and we’re like your metrics aren’t looking as good. We feel like we’re spending too much on an ad spend and if we look at our organic you know, to ad ratio, these numbers aren’t as good as they should be. And you can see the definite turning point when we started launching all these campaigns with all these keywords. We don’t think this is a good idea right now. Hey, let’s pivot to at least maybe you restrict the amount of ad spend we’re using on these tests or something like that.
Right, so that’s that collaborative. Hey, yeah, let’s test it. Oh, we don’t feel like this is in the best interest of your brand. Here is why. Here’s our options. Let’s get together and make a strategy around that and my goal for all of our accounts is like when you say, hey, I want to do this with this product and this with this product and these products. You know we have to discontinue them by end of year because you know they’re expiring or something. Can you push more here? Yep, yep, yep, yep. You shouldn’t have to think about what that looks like from an ad strategy perspective. We should have it, but you should get that control over your brand to say, like this is what I want to happen to my brand. I need the feedback on what you’re seeing, because you’re so close to the data, and then rinse and repeat, you know, just so everything gets better.
Kevin King:
Awesome. Well, Elizabeth, this has been great. We’ve been talking here for an hour already and we could keep going. It’s for quite some time. I’m sure we could keep digging all kinds of cool stuff up. This has been great, actionable stuff that you’ve shared. I really, really appreciate it. I know the audience everybody listening is probably busy scribbling notes or they pulled off to the side of the road and if they’re driving and like taking a couple of notes, this would be great if people want to reach out to you or follow you or learn more about your company or what’s the best ways to do that.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, definitely it’s the best place to follow me and would be on LinkedIn. I put out the most content there, trying to get it up on the YouTube. If you have any idea that you want, like if I said something, I’m like oh my gosh, I wish I had more information, like shooting a DM, because I’m always looking for video ideas. But as far as working with us, the website is definitely going to be the best place for that. Junglr.
Kevin King:
No E yeah Jungler before the R.
Elizabeth:
Yes, no, definitely that. And as far as audits go, we recently did a complete overhaul of our audit because we realized that every single audit on the market from ad agencies everyone got the same thing and when comparing our audits, everybody else would be like oh yeah, I already know that. So we essentially took in, take everything that we traditionally did after onboarding to see what’s up in the account and then put that in front as our audit. So we found that that’s actually been really beneficial to brands. So if you’re interested in working with us, that’s a free offer on the table. Feel free to reach out for that.
Kevin King:
Cool. Well, thanks again, Elizabeth, for joining us today. This has been awesome. We’ll have to do it again.
Elizabeth:
Yeah, thanks so much.
Kevin King:
Great stuff from Elizabeth. Be sure to follow her on LinkedIn if you want to see what she is up to, and she posts quite a bit of her latest discoveries and latest tricks and tactics on LinkedIn. I really like the search query performance stuff. She talked about how to benchmark against your competitors and identify the profitable search terms. Lots of good stuff in this interview. Hope you really got something from it. We’ll be back again next week with our guest Yana. We’re going to be talking about languages and all kinds of really cool stuff. I think you’re going to get some, some good, good ideas from our talk next week, so hopefully you’ll join us again next Thursday. Before we go, I’ve got some words of wisdom for you. This is something I believe in Either teach me or entertain me, otherwise you’re dead to me. See you again next week.
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