The (UN)Comfort Zone; Fighting the Fear of the Unknown – 232

I’m not giving away any state secrets when I say that the last year has presented its share of challenges for all of us. However, in some ways those in e-commerce are better prepared than most. 

Between rapidly changing marketplaces, regulations, shipping problems or governmental tariffs, entrepreneurs have developed the ability to be agile and quickly adjust to what is often just part of doing business. 

Still, there’s another kind of discomfort that occasionally presents even more of a challenge. 

I’m talking about the fact that as entrepreneurs, you frequently have to really put yourselves out there in the public eye. Many times, you ARE your brand. For those that are a little more introverted to begin with, the challenges are two-fold. 

In this episode of the AM/PM Podcast, Tim Jordan welcomes Emma Tamir, an in-demand copywriter who together with her husband and business partner, own Marketing by Emma. They say that their goal is to, “break through the noise, grab and hold customers’ attention, and boost (their) conversions.” 

Emma says that she, “started with a love for words and a dream to share them with the world.”  Now Marketing by Emma has over 800 happy clients and is growing every year.  

Emma’s challenge has been that she’s a bit introverted and works in a packed e-commerce field that sometimes rewards those that enjoy drawing attention to themselves. She’s had to find a way to break through the noise, and her own discomfort. 

She’s very successfully done both. This is her story. 

In episode 232 of the AM/PM Podcast, Tim and Emma discuss:

  • 04:30 – Emma’s Background in E-Commerce
  • 07:45 – Managing a Business Partnership (and a Relationship)
  • 10:30 – A Conscious Choice to Put Herself in the Spotlight
  • 13:45 – Trying to Be Taken Seriously in Business 
  • 17:15 – Gender Stereotyped Feedback was Tough to Take
  • 20:00 – How Did Emma Start Navigate Past Fear? 
  • 22:30 – Simply Wanting a Chance
  • 25:00 – Establishing a Support Network   
  • 28:15 – Wanting Her Work to Speak for Itself   
  • 29:45 – Life as an Introverted Entrepreneur 
  • 32:30 – Pushing Past Discomfort

Enjoy this episode? Be sure to check out our previous episodes for even more content to propel you to Amazon FBA Seller success! And don’t forget to “Like” our Facebook page and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Google Play or wherever you listen to our podcast.

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Transcript

Tim Jordan: For many people, succeeding means stepping outside of your comfort zone, especially when it comes to business. Many of us solopreneurs, or fledgling entrepreneurs, we have to do things that we never thought we’d be doing. And sometimes it doesn’t feel great. Today’s episode is talking exactly about that. She’s going to talk about her rise to start in, so to speak in the entrepreneurial space that she works in and how it wasn’t necessarily easy. And honestly, how she had a lot of people telling her that she couldn’t. It’s going to be a great episode. Hope you enjoy it. Stay tuned.

Tim Jordan: Hi, I’m Tim Jordan, and in every corner of the world, entrepreneurship is growing. So join me as I explore the stories of successes and failures. Listen in, as I chat with the risk takers, the adventurous and the entrepreneurial veterans, we all have a dream of living a life, fulfilling our passions, and we want a business that doesn’t make us punch a time clock, but instead runs around the clock in the AM and the PM. So get motivated, get inspired. You’re listening to the AM/PM Podcast.

Tim Jordan: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the AM/PM Podcast. We talk about all things entrepreneurship from the mind and the eyes, the seat, typically of an e-commerce seller today, we have a great guest Miss Emma Tamir. We messed up her last name. We started recording, had to rerecord and I looked like a complete moron and was still laughing at me about it. But Emma, how are you doing today?

Emma: I’m good, Tim. Thanks for having me here. I must say I’m a little nervous talking about today’s topic, but I guess better to just lead with that, then try to pretend like this is super comfortable terrain for me.

Tim Jordan: Yeah. And we have a lot of guests that talk about all sorts of cool things, digital marketing and e-commerce and all that stuff. But we’re going to have a little more personal conversation with Emma and I want to preface this entire interview with, I don’t know, maybe some fine print, like let’s set a few things on the table first. One, Emma and I are good friends. We’ve known each other now for a couple of years now. Right, Emma? Something like that. And she and I can have some very candid conversation. She and I have the type of relationship where we can go months without talking. And then if I’m having a bad day and just need someone to vent to, I can call her and we’ll have a three hour conversation. I always feel better. And likewise, so just so all of you listeners know we have a very strong relationship and some of the personal things that I’m asking her are completely on limits. We’ve discussed this. This is not me picking on her. This is not unplanned. She and I, and another kind of industry leader, we’re having conversation maybe a month ago, right? Emma and we were having like this very raw conversation about life and entrepreneurship and women leadership and struggles that we have. And I said, man, we need to get this on the podcast. So we can’t have that same conversation again, but I want to take some of those things that Emma was sharing with me and let her explain those to you, the audience. And it was a great learning experience for me. Like I was nearly to the point of writing notes when she was saying, it’s like, man, I’ve never thought about it that way. Or I’ve never like made this realization, so let’s get into it. Are you good, Emma?

Emma: I’m good. I’m ready.

Tim Jordan: Emma is terrified for those of you that can’t see the YouTube video – the dread on Emma’s face. Just from that introduction. I promise is not going to be like that deep. We’ll take it pretty easy. So, the first time I met Emma, we were at an event in a large e-commerce event in Vegas. And Emma approached me, started talking to me and she’s like two and a half feet tall. She’s like really short, which I’m not tall. So someone really shorter than me, and she was with her husband and she introduced herself and I could kind of tell she was nervous. I kind of tell this was not her thing to be in a room of a thousand people shaking hands, but she was out there doing it. And a lot of people stop me and shake my hand, but I stopped and talked to her for a long time. And, I don’t remember what the conversation was, Emma, but we got kind of personal kind of fast. Like I might even said something like you look terrified, you can relax. It’s okay. Like I can tell you’re a big introvert, but you’re doing great. This is awesome. And I remember just instantly being impressed, not even knowing what she did in the space, not even knowing what her job was, why she was there, but just impressed that she was so obviously going outside of her comfort zone to meet people and to grow her experience and to network and all that good stuff. So Emma, if you would briefly talk about what you do and why you were at that event and kind of give people an introduction to your place in like the e-commerce digital marketing world.

Emma: So, I own a copywriting firm called Marketing by Emma and we create conversion spiking copy for e-commerce businesses, for Amazon listings websites and all those things that you really need to do to effectively communicate with your target customers. And so I was at that event representing my business, but also just there to learn. I’m a big believer in the more you know, the better that you can do, whatever it is, even if it doesn’t directly relate, it’s just helpful to understand the full picture, to know what it’s like to be an Amazon seller, to understand just the full space that we’re operating in. And, I think a lot of people, especially the people that are more vocal in the business world, they categorize themselves as these born entrepreneurs. They were the ones that had a lemonade stand when they were five years old and they were always selling and peddling and gregarious. And that was not me at all. I am actually – my husband is my business partner and he’s really the reason why I’m in business in the first place, because I never would have thought that it was a space for me. And I never would have had the confidence to put myself out there in that way and probably would have forever stayed working for other people or who knows maybe doing more freelance type of work. Certainly not trying to build the business that we’ve been really focused on creating for the last four years.

Tim Jordan: And I remember, you being there with your husband was something that’s interesting to me because when you introduced yourself, you said, I’m Emma with Marketing by Emma. This is my husband. He runs the business and your husband was actually much more comfortable in that situation than you were. Right. I remember he was just more comfortable in that environment and meeting new, but you’re like the kind of shy one, right? And I remember thinking like, this is Marketing by Emma, they’re in business together, which is a whole lot of questions. I’d love to ask you about being a business partner with your spouse. But at some point a tactical decision was made by the two of you. He would kind of run the business side, you’d be the production side, the marketing, he was the one that, to me seems more comfortable being outspoken and kind of out there in other people’s faces. And you’re not, but at some point you guys said, this is going to be Marketing my Emma, Emma’s going to be the face. Emma’s going to be the brand, even though she’s the less comfortable with that. So, tell me like how and why that decision was made. And was that something that gave you some angst, made you a little bit uncomfortable being the face when that’s not naturally what you’re comfortable doing?

Emma: Oh my gosh, did it give me an angst? So first of all, our – the name of our business in the first place was a hurried decision. And we thought it would just be a placeholder until we could think of a better name. We were going to be having a local article written about us and I’m just like, okay, well we need a domain. And I was racking my mind trying to think of something witty or clever. And then eventually I was like, well, this is easy to spell. Easy to remember. It’s nothing confusing that you wouldn’t know how to pronounce. And so we used it, and then it just seemed to work. And it also seemed to communicate a lot of what we really try to encapsulate with our business, which is not just being a great place for marketing writing, but really being a place where you do have an opportunity for personal connection, where we really take the time and care for every single person that we work with. And I think having that name there and having that face helps to really cultivate that sense of approachability and some of those other elements that I think a lot of times, especially when you’re thinking about marketing companies. You imagine logos of like an arrow going up or just very technical sounding things. And so we wanted to make a very clear choice to be different, but I really fought hard against making my face the logo, and it was not a comfortable choice to make, but I understood why it was important. And I think the other thing, is that while my husband areas is definitely more of the one that you know is doing sales and business development and all of those sorts of things, I was the one that was actually bringing the marketing expertise and managing the creative operations and a lot of the structural things of the business. And so that was sort of the other main reason is it’s my vision, as far as both what we do outwardly for clients, and also how we run our business internally.

Tim Jordan: So, it was an accident. It was unintentional. It just kind of stuck. So, I’m making an assumption here, but at some point you went, Oh my gosh, we’re stuck with this. I’m now the face of this business. This was not my intention. I didn’t sign up for this. This wasn’t what I wanted, but we’re doing it. And as you’re looking at ways to grow your business, you know that especially in this industry, the digital marketing industry, and e-commerce a lot of your businesses growth is based on the personal relationships, the branding, the exposure, right? And at some point you realized, Oh, crap. Now I’ve got to do all this. And my suspicion is, and we’ve never talked about this specifically. So I’m just asking, but my suspicion is you had to start looking around at examples of how other people are doing this well. And we know that in, especially the e-commerce space, there are more outspoken male leaders than females. The females are kind of very outnumbered. And there’s been a lot of talk lately about how these genius females are not standing up and talking more about their success and sharing their experience. And I think the industry wants more of that. So my suspicion is you had to start looking around at examples and figuring out how do I take a more strong or stronger leadership role in this community? Is that something that happened? Is that something that you proactively are thinking about and tactically considering, or kind of walk me through that?

Emma: Yes. 100%. It was a conscious choice, understanding that we had a really great customer base and we were getting a lot of business through referrals, but we also understood that if we wanted to grow and the way that we were striving to grow, we had to figure out a way to be able to connect with a broader audience. And it was clear that things like speaking engagements and podcasts and different things like that was a great way to be able to cultivate relationships, to get in front of different kinds of people. And as much as it was not a comfort zone, in some respects, it was also very much a comfort zone in other respects for the same reasons why this kind of conversation is really uncomfortable for me. I love talking about what I know well, and I love geeking out about the topics that I have a lot of understanding about. So, in thinking about even as a younger person, I always felt most comfortable in that sort of knowledge dialogue type of place. So whether that was school or in one-on-one conversations with people. And so, I definitely the hardest part I think was just putting myself out there initially and saying like, Hey, you don’t know who I am, but I think I have something to contribute. And it takes a great amount of either competence to do that, or just kind of – this is terrifying, but I’m not going to let that be a reason not to do this. And it was definitely the latter for me.

Tim Jordan: So, what about the role of female leadership? Was that something that weighed heavily on your mind that like, Hey, there’s not a whim, a lot of women out here on stages. There’s not a lot of women out here speaking, like there’s not a lot of female representation. Is that something you were acutely aware of and kind of, what was your thought about that in this space? In the context of, I’ve got to start putting myself out there to build the business, I’ve got to become a leader in the industry. I’ve got to have these relationships. Was that something that you even noticed?

Emma: It is something that I noticed, because I think even if you don’t really want to be considering it as a woman, it’s something that you’re just kind of forced to be aware of, because let’s say that I don’t want my brand to have anything to do with that. I’m not saying that that’s the case, but let’s say that I don’t, other people are still going to see it that way. So whether or not it’s something that’s important to you, you still have the everybody else’s impressions, that’s going to be impacting the choices you make and how you’re perceived. And so even things like you mentioned, I’m sure that was something you noticed right away. So I’m sure now, after owning a business for a few years, maybe don’t look quite as young as I used to look, but at least a few years ago I was looking much younger. My voice is high pitched. And so, I have always felt like before I opened my mouth, or even just in those introductory moments, people don’t necessarily take me as seriously as I’d like to be taken. And I do think that there’s likely an element of the fact that I am a woman that impacts that. And so, I guess like the Napoleon complex for men, I have a little bit of that as a woman, I feel like that’s like the closest that I can relate it to you because I was also, because you’re short, you kind of always have to be a little bit over the top in some ways to beat, to feel like you’re heard or to make sure that people aren’t running into you. And so it – I guess maybe there are even multiple dynamics going on there.

Tim Jordan: There’s a lot of dynamics going on there. So, let me back up a second. You made the comment, you said being a female minority in this space, you said that there were certain perceptions and things that ongoing perceptions and things that you had to consider, whether those real or imagined not saying that, but in your mind you’re thinking, Hey, there’s some certain perceptions that I’ve got to overcome. What were those perceptions? And do you think there were negative?

Emma: Sorry to interrupt you. So I feel like some of the feedback I got from people I wouldn’t have received if I was a man that I was because also, I’m in the marketing space. And so, and I kind of verge on some of those, it’s not like this one tactic that you do this thing and you see an instant 300%, like there’s more subtlety to it. And you it’s contemplating things like human psychology and emotion and some of those more female types of things. And so I really felt like, especially when I was trying to gain traction earlier on and putting myself out there, people were giving me feedback, telling me, Oh, well, you’re not – you don’t have those like tactics, like you don’t have, like it’s fine for sort of more entry level stuff, but you don’t bring that serious tips that make people, that people would pay a lot of money to go hear you speak about. And so I felt that very early on, and felt the need to figure out how to break from that perception.

Tim Jordan: Okay. So two things, and this is something you and I have not talked about. I told her that you may have said, we’ve had these conversations that now we’re like a new blue ocean. I’m trying to understand this in real time here. First off, who is giving you this type of feedback, and you don’t have to mention names, but like what type of role in the industry was giving this feedback? And also you made a pretty bold statement that you feel like if you were a man, you wouldn’t have gotten that same feedback. And the feedback you mentioned was talking about like the type of content you’re giving. So explain that a little bit, like, why were you receiving this feedback? What type of person from – and why do you think that even like the feedback about your type of content would have not been the same feedback if you were a male?

Emma: So I feel like in general, and maybe this is just my own stuff, maybe this is obviously we’re all just operating in our own worlds and are interpreting things in the ways that we’ve learned how to interpret them. So maybe I’m totally off with this, but these were big people that are well-known. I would consider to be kind of gatekeeper type of people that if you get their seal of approval or if they give you space on their platform, it can really, um, positively impact your business. And I was getting that kind of feedback before I’d even really had an opportunity to share the specifics of what I wanted to discuss. And so maybe it was maybe it had nothing to do with being a woman. And maybe it was just that I was here and another person that knows about listing optimization and like, how many things can you possibly discuss about that? But I also wasn’t necessarily given an opportunity at least immediately to be able to communicate why my perspective was different and one that deserved space at the table. And that has definitely shifted over time, but it was something that I had to be kind of persistent with. And I still have yet to develop a thick skin I’m incredibly sensitive, but not letting those types of things be reason to just curl up in my shell and call it a day. Though, I definitely wanted to do that numerous times.

Tim Jordan: I was about to say, and I’m very similar in that that’s often my natural reaction is just to curl up, walk away from the drama. I don’t want to deal with it, just hide from it. Right. So that’s pretty. So, how did you not do that? How did you, and let me back up for a second, there’s a lot of things that were in your words, tell me if I’m wrong. I’m not making an assessment here, but you felt like there was a lot of things that were going against you. You’re a woman in a largely male dominated public industry. You’re short, you’re high pitched, like you look super young, which is great, by the way, like every woman that’s listening to this is like, if you complain about looking young again. But you have a lot that was, that was kind of weighing you down, and like probably internally telling you, Hey, you don’t need to like, keep pushing forward as a public figure and trying to make a name for yourself. How did you overcome that? Because that’s something that a lot of people, whether they’re public figures or they’re just trying to start a business behind the scenes and other people are telling them, you can’t do it. Like that’s something that every entrepreneur has to deal with. So what was one of your biggest tools or like skills or habits that helped you continue doing that when you didn’t want to?

Emma: So when I was a little girl, probably I don’t know, six or seven, I was at a water park with my middle brother. And, you know those like kamikaze slides that go like straight down, they’re terrifying. So I remember I was up there with him and I was freaking out and I was like, I don’t think I can do this. And eventually we both went down and afterwards my mom and dad were asking us, like what was it that allowed you to do that? And my brother just said the perfect thing. And it stuck with me all these years. He said he put his fear in timeout. And so it’s not about seeing fear as something that’s reason not to do something. It’s just an acknowledgement of, okay, that’s there, but this other thing is more important. And I feel like I’ve also just really honed that ability to do things, regardless of the fact that they’re scary. So I’ve lived on four continents. I’ve traveled by myself in third world countries. I didn’t do those recklessly and I didn’t do them fearlessly. I definitely had fear with me the whole time. And I think that’s what allowed me to avoid getting pickpocketed and make it out safely because I had that heightened awareness. But I also feel like if fear was a reason to not pursue things, then my life would be so narrow and limited. And also a lot of times the things that feel really scary once you do them, aren’t scary at all, or they become less scary over time. So while I’m nervous for this interview, because it’s talking about more personal things that I’m not used to discussing, I also pushed myself eventually into doing so many podcasts and webinars and everything that it’s really nothing for me now to jump on a conversation and recording and talk about things. Whereas a year and a half, two years ago, I would have felt nervous for days before.

Tim Jordan: So going back to this feedback that you received, these are like very influential people in the industry that are giving you this negative feedback and this feedback will affect your business, right. Or the responses will affect your business. The decisions based on their feedback will affect your business. Do you feel like this feedback was misguided? Do you feel like it was based on like nativity, you know the word better than I do, but not understanding, or do you feel like the feedback was just straight unfair?

Emma: I feel like it just didn’t give me a chance. And again, this is my perception of things, but – and I would say that overall, like throughout my life, I tend to feel like a little bit of the underdog. And so again, this could just be my own crap that had nothing at all to do with the interaction, or I didn’t have the level of confidence that I needed to have in order to approach some of these people. And I had a more confident approach, then the response would have been different, but I felt like a judgment was made before I’d even had a chance to communicate. And it would have been nice to have had the opportunity to even just have a five minute conversation to explain why I think I do have something that may be worth contributing. And some of those people have changed their minds over time. So I think that does suggest to me that there was maybe some judgment going on that was not necessarily accurate and was more based on either my timidity or just the perception of who I am as a person.

Tim Jordan: So, I’m going to make an assumption here and tell me if I’m wrong. If I’m not wrong, we’ll continue down this path. But as you’re struggling with these issues, maybe have confidence, right? For whatever reason is, and you’re struggling with some negative feedback, you’re struggling with some negative responses that you’re getting, but you’re making the decision having to keep pushing forward. I’m going to try to become a leader in this industry. I’m going to assert myself, I’m going to help people wherever I can. I’m going to grow my business. My suspicion is you had to start looking around for other people similar to yourself, maybe in the same industry or maybe they’re female that are doing it well. And you kind of had to go look for a role model you’re out of here you’re looking for examples may not enroll about it, but examples, did you find that hard to do? Was it hard to find a strong, independent female in this industry that was doing it the same way that you want to do that you can emulate?

Emma: It is challenging. I think for a few reasons, one is, especially when I was getting started in this space, there’s just been a huge shift over the last couple of years with the amount of representation that women have in the e-commerce space. And that was not the case a few years ago. I mean, a few years ago you go to events and there’s maybe one woman speaker there just, there was nobody. But also I am not comfortable admitting to my weaknesses, which maybe sounds weird because I’m sitting here talking with you about a lot of those uncomfortable vulnerability types of things. But I, in the same way that I knew that I needed to put myself out there for getting exposure and being able to participate in some of these types of content. I also understood that I needed to be able to have people that I could interact with that I can share my challenges with, even asking them, do you think I’m crazy? And then they say, yeah, you’re totally crazy. And like, this is all just happening in your head or no, that makes total sense. And I’ve dealt with some of those same things and both of those are really helpful types of input. I mean, I would even say that Tim, you’re not a woman, but you’ve certainly served as one of those people for me. Since meeting you, because you are just somebody that’s very open and you are very transparent. And so it allows other people to feel comfortable being themselves as well.

Tim Jordan: So explain what your mold is, Emma, like we’ve made some generalized statements like you don’t fit the mold, you go a different route. What does that mean? Explain to me how you see yourself in this space and why your mold is different. Like define your mold.

Emma: Ooh. This is a difficult question. Because I feel like it – what immediately comes to mind and answering that question would create an impression that I don’t want to create.

Tim Jordan: You’re a wordsmith. Surely you can figure out how to say this correctly and look, no judgment here.

Emma: I’m a wordsmith in writing, not in speaking. In speaking, I’m oftentimes not articulate.

Tim Jordan: So, what we’ll do is we pause the recording, you write it down and then you read it to me. After we start recording again. Let me ask a different question, okay?

Emma: Okay.

Tim Jordan: What are some of the ways in which you see yourself standing out in a different way than others? What are some of the things that you do? What are some of the qualities that you have? What are some of the traits that you exhibit that are different than quote unquote, the mainstream mold, but does give you different advantage?

Emma: Okay. So I think for me, one of the main things is that I want my work to speak for itself. So I’m not necessarily one to go out there and say, we’re the best at this, or to try to really cultivate that big fan base that’s going to be just sort of my cheerleaders, if you will. And I also don’t really form those relationships within the industry either. So I really, I guess I try to have impact through merit and through really demonstrating that I do know what I’m talking about, that I am going to show up with tons of value that it’s not going to be a sales pitch. And that I’m somebody that you want to have there because people want to be there to hear what I have to say.

Tim Jordan: But I think that what you’re talking about, kind of the struggle of like, you see a lot of people doing it this way, but that’s not your weight isn’t even necessarily tied to being a female or a male. A lot of times it’s tied to being an extrovert or an introvert. Right? And so a lot of your struggle that we’ve talked about is because you’re an introvert naturally. Like you struggle with this, it’s compounded. I think because you are a woman and fair and not fair. It is what it is. Like there’s even less female representation. So it makes it harder. And some people do take you less seriously. You know what I mean? I think that’s all fair, but I think this is important to talk about because if you’re a dude, listen to this call right now, you may be a lot like Emma, and that you still struggle putting yourself out there. We’re not even talking about becoming an influencer in the space, but maybe it’s just reaching out for help joining a community, joining an entrepreneurial mastermind because you are introverted, it’s hard for you to do that. And my challenge to you would be take the advice that Emma’s given and understand that you don’t have to be loud. You don’t have to be outspoken. You don’t have to be a boisterous extrovert. That’s always putting yourself out there and being the life of the party and the social butterfly, you can make a huge impact around you and for yourself in different ways than other people are doing it. Like don’t feel like you have to fit that mold. Would you agree with that, Emma?

Emma: Yeah, 100%. If that could be the one takeaway from this conversation, that is really what I hope that it would be because in the same way that the loudest people are going to be the ones that you know are heard, or the people that are most confident are going to be the ones that you’re seeing the most. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t also space for the people that are softer spoken,` or the people that prefer to listen more than speak. And a lot of times those people have such tremendous value to be able to bring. And so I think what’s also important. Like, let’s say that you’re the extrovert, maybe also contemplate ways that you can create a space that is more inviting for the introverts to be able to contribute whether that’s your own business and your team, or, you know, a community or whatever it is that you’re in. Because what we’re doing is introverts all the time is we are observing. We’re making connections. We’re not sitting there just not engaging. It’s just that more of that engagement is happening internally in our minds and we’re processing and making connections, and doing some of those things that you may not even have the time to do. If you’re primarily spending your time talking and actively engaging with the people around you.

Tim Jordan: Amazing. And we’re really short on time, we’ve got like three minutes we can go, but let me ask you this. All right, speaking to the audience right now, that’s listening to this podcast. What is the one piece of encouragement, like short, bite-sized encouragement advice that you’d give to women that want to grow? I’m not talking about just an influence public, a bit, grow their business, grow their brand, grow their reputation, grow their experience, grow their wisdom, grow their credibility in whatever business they’re in. In the scenario that they may be a little bit more reclusive, a little more introverted, a little less comfortable with this big outspoken leadership role. What’s the one piece of advice that you’d give to them based on your experience in overcoming that, because I’m going to tell you, I’m not saying you’ve overcome the struggle, but you’re doing it right. Like I’ve seen you over the past few years, like do it. So what’s the piece of advice you’d give to people that are kind of maybe in the same shoes as you are or used to be?

Emma: Do it. Truly. I mean, that’s just, you just have to do it. You have to push through it regardless, and also ask yourself if that’s the position that you want to be in. And if it’s not, and you don’t want to be the thought leader for your business, or you don’t want to be the face of it, then find somebody that really loves doing that and make them. You don’t just because it’s your business doesn’t mean that you have to be the one that is the face that’s representing it. We see many businesses, even in this space that have fantastic, knowledgeable, engaging people that are doing that. So, if it is important to you and if it is something that you want to do and you feel like you do have something to contribute, then no, that probably most of the other people that you’re seeing and hearing also deal with a certain amount of self-doubt and fear, but just push through that because they understand the value in doing that.

Tim Jordan: Amazing. Thank you, Emma, for sharing this, I know it’s been tricky because we’ve both been struggling to use the right words to not misconstrue what our intention or our questions are, which is a little bit tough because the truth is this world is very sensitive and there are people that are listening to this right now that got butt hurt over something we said. Probably because they misconstrued. And this world is full of a bunch of snowflakes. And those of you that are listening, that aren’t snowflakes, thank you for understanding the intention of what we’re trying to discuss. Emma came on here to share her real world experience, right? Whether you agree with it or not, she’s telling you what she has experienced with the intention of helping empower people, helping people understand that, Hey, the people that you see publicly that are crushing it and making a million dollars and doing this and this and this, there’s an equal number of those people that have a different personality that are also doing those things. And just because you don’t fit the mold of what you see publicly, you don’t fit the mold of who you see in the space taking leadership roles doesn’t mean that you also can’t be successful. You can’t be a leader. You can’t be impactful. You can’t be a role model and you can’t be generally something that you’re going to go to bed at night, proud of being, right? And Emma, you were an example to me of that. I struggled with a lot of the same things that you do and you and I have had very long conversations. Recently I was sitting in a Hardee’s parking lot, slipping out of vanilla milkshake, talking to you for three hours, trying to figure out life. And I understand that I get that. And you being open and honest and sharing some of the struggles that you have, and maybe some of your vulnerabilities is very, very impactful and very, very special. And I appreciate you sharing that.

Emma: Thank you so much, Tim. I hope that people found this helpful and it’s okay to be scared. I just, I feel like even that there’s this perception that the people that are out there, aren’t feeling afraid of things and we’re probably all dealing with our own garbage in our heads. And so it’s just important to acknowledge that a little bit.

Tim Jordan: I understand. Well, thank you all for listening to another episode. If you liked this episode, please leave us a review on whatever platform you’re listening on and we will see you guys on the next episode.