An Entrepreneur’s Relentless Positivity and a Life Changing Product (Part Two) – 227

There are so many inspiring stories from entrepreneurs that from time to time, they can blend together. This is not one of those stories. 

Today on the AM/PM Podcast, Tim Jordan continues his conversation with Shavini Fernando, the founder of OxiWear. Shavini is a video game, VR & web designer and developer. But, more importantly, she’s the inventor of a device that she developed to help those diagnosed with severe Pulmonary Hypertension (PH).

Shavini suffered through multiple situations in which her heart stopped as a result of a sudden drop in her oxygen levels, necessitating that she use self-CPR to revive her own heart.

After several near-death experiences, she invented OxiWear as a tool for herself and the larger PH community. 

She received her second Master’s Degree in Communication, Culture and Technology from Georgetown University and is currently completing an Executive Certificate in Innovation and Entrepreneurship through Stanford University.

Her invention and new venture have led her to win awards from Ted Leonsis, Citi Ventures, and Georgetown University, which awarded her the Exceptional Masters Student Award for 2019.

Her attitude of positivity and resilience must be heard to be properly appreciated. 

This is part two of a two-part series detailing her story. I promise you that this is one (two, actually) you don’t want to miss. 

In episode 227 of the AM/PM Podcast, Tim and Shavini discuss:

  • 02:15 – How Did Shavini Come Up with Her Idea?
  • 04:00 – Preserving Her Independence
  • 06:00 – “I Love Crazy Ideas, Let’s Do This”
  • 09:00 – Learning 3D Printing to Move Her Designs Forward
  • 11:30 – Starting a Company
  • 14:00 – Time to File for Patents 
  • 18:00 – Turning an Idea into a Business  
  • 20:30 – Attracting Investors   
  • 23:00 – Saying No to a Great Job Offer   
  • 26:00 – Launching Her Product to Two Different Markets 
  • 28:00 – My Mission is Saving Lives
  • 30:00 – How to Follow Shavini and OxiWear’s Progress

Enjoy this episode? Be sure to check out our previous episodes for even more content to propel you to Amazon FBA Seller success! And don’t forget to “join” our Facebook Group and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to our podcast.

Want to absolutely start crushing it on eCommerce and make more money? Follow these steps for helpful resources to get started:

  1. Get the Ultimate Resource Guide from Tim Jordan for tools and services that he uses every day to dominate on Amazon!
  2. New to Selling on Amazon? Freedom Ticket offers the best tips, tricks, and strategies for beginners just starting out! Sign up for Freedom Ticket.
  3. Trying to Find a New Product? Get the most powerful Amazon product research tool in Black Box, available only at Helium 10! Start researching with Black Box.
  4. Want to Verify Your Product Idea? Use Xray in our Chrome extension to check how lucrative your next product idea is with over a dozen metrics of data! Download the Helium 10 Chrome Extension.
  5. The Ultimate Software Tool Suite for Amazon Sellers! Get more Helium 10 tools that can help you to optimize your listings and increase sales for a low price! Sign up today!
  6. Protect Your Amazon Brand with a Trademark! Protecting your brand from hijackers is vital. SellerTradmarks.com provides a streamlined process for obtaining a trademark for your business and shielding your products from fraud!
  7. Does Amazon Owe YOU Money? Find Out for FREE! If you have been selling for over a year on Amazon, you may be owed money for lost or damaged inventory and not even know it. Get a FREE refund report to see how much you’re owed!

Transcript

Tim Jordan: Hi, I’m Tim Jordan, and in every corner of the world, entrepreneurship is growing. So join me as I explore the stories of successes and failures. Listen in as I chat with the risk takers, the adventurous and the entrepreneurial veterans. We all have a dream of living a life, fulfilling our passions, and we want a business that doesn’t make us punch a time clock, but instead runs around the clock in the AM and the PM. So get motivated, get inspired. You’re listening to the AM/PM Podcast.

Tim Jordan: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to part two with Shavini. This is the first time we have ever done a two-part podcast. So, I was just talking to the editors, trying to figure out how we’re going to make this thing nice and smooth, but we’re going to make it happen. So last episode Shavini basically told us about all the times that she died. Is that a good summary?

Shavini Fernando: Yeah, literally. Yeah.

Tim Jordan: Okay, good. So, for those of you that didn’t listen to the first episode, go back and listen to the first episode. And the big takeaways for me was that sometimes life isn’t fair. Sometimes crappy stuff happens. Sometimes it leads to some pretty cool stuff. Sometimes we find the answers to mysteries later in life than we want to. And positivity goes a long way. And that’s one thing that the big takeaway I took from Shavini last episode was that positivity she has. So for those of you that didn’t listen and won’t listen, maybe you’re too lazy to go back listen episode one, essentially Ms. Shavini has a heart defect, right? And it causes a situation where her body does not oxygenate its blood appropriately, and that has to be monitored. And there’s really no good devices. There’s really no good portable, especially machines that do this. Something that you can live like a fairly normal life in. So we know that you’re highly educated. You came from a background in some computer science, some technology, stuff like that. And now you’ve got this medical issue that you want to find a solution for. And we already hinted at the fact that you founded a company called OxiWear, so let’s talk about this product, explain exactly how you came up with this idea for OxiWear, not the purpose, but the idea for the product.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. So, something like that raised when I had the cardiac issue in Georgetown, the doctors were questioning me like, whether you should stay alone, whether you should consider changing the school. And they were literally asking me to go back to how everything was before and I was not ready to do that. So I went and bought a few wearables, like wrist wearables that’s available in the market so that I can see my heart rate and everything. And I went into the doctor and said, I can live alone. I have a device now. And then he said, okay, your problem is not your heart rate. Your problem is your oxygen levels. And for people with hypertension, your body oxygen levels drop, but you don’t physically feel it that’s the problem here. So I said, okay, I have finger cuff. He said, yeah, you already had the finger cuff, but you still didn’t know it because unless you physically feel it, you don’t verify and check. So that’s your problem. So as a joke, then I told him, okay, then let’s do something. Let’s make something because I wanted to live alone. I didn’t want to move back with my sister, and go back to zero. And then he was laughing, and he said what do you mean? I said, it just like a fire alarm, you sense the fire, smoke, you call 911. And then he was like, if anyone can do it, it’s you, so do it and I will help you. So we started it off as a joke, so that I can, I don’t have to move to my sisters and I can still live alone and still study at Georgetown.

Tim Jordan: Yeah. So this was all an attempt for independence, essentially, because what they’re saying is, since we can’t monitor your status, it’s unsafe. So that was your solution is let’s make something that consistently monitors this situation, not heart rate, but actual oxygen levels and something, I guess that has some sort of communication component. You’re talking about a fire alarm, so something that communicates and can sound the alarm, so to speak. So that’s all well and good, right? You have a tech background. You’ve now got actual medical personnel that you’re joking about this with, but how do you actually go about creating a concept? I know that’s a long step to creating the product, but creating a concept of, well, this may actually work. So tell me about that.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah, that was really tough because now the thing was, I was already a workaholic. I was doing about four jobs in school, and then I was doing my masters. I was cramping for time. When I was starting at Georgetown, you can literally pick whatever you want to study and you can study and there’s options that you can do your own independent studies. So I went and asked them, I told them, the program director at my program at Georgetown CCP, like, okay, I have this crazy idea. Can I do it as an independent study? And then he was like, explain it to me. I said, my doctors doesn’t allow me to stay alone. So I want to make this wearable on the ear to monitor my body oxygen levels. And then warn me so that I can get the help in time. So then I asked the doctor, okay, what’s the best place to measure oxygen other than the finger. And then he was like, the ear is the best place, not the finger, the ear is the best place. I was like, okay, fine. So let’s do an earring. That’s how I said. So then I went and I talked to my professor who I did all my tech and development work with. And then he was like, I love crazy ideas. Let’s do this. So he became my advisor. And then one of the jobs I was doing at Georgetown was working as a maker space for like the space coordinator. So because of that, what I did was while I was at Makerspace, I started working on it because there’s electronics corner. And first what I did was I had no clue how to do design software. I’m not electronics person, so I researched on different sensors, what I have to use. And then, so that’s what I was supposed to do. My professor was not helping. He said, you need like first thing is, you need to research on what senses are needed, and how do you do this? What are the additional stuff you need, to learn what you need, like all the parts you need to assemble this and then do the big thing to see whether it works on me. And then I had, I went and studied different electronics, like textiles, instrument journals, and watch video, YouTube videos and did so much research to figure out how do I put this together?

Tim Jordan: So what’s interesting about this is there’s a lot of people in the e-commerce space that have an idea. This is something that needs to happen. Here’s a function we need to fulfill, but people just don’t know the next step. I’m not an inventor, I’m not an electronics engineer, electrical engineer. I don’t know anything, but it sounds like for you, the solution was just to start researching the crap out of it, right? YouTube videos, Google this thing, and then started utilizing these makerspace, right? These maker-space people. And it’s interesting in this world, there are so many people out there that are hobbyists or that are learning or their students or their interns that can do this stuff. And for me, there’s a lot of things I don’t know how to make, but I’m finding out there’s huge networks of people that will work with me a lot of times for free to at least put prototypes together, which is interesting. So it reduces that barrier to entry that so many of us think we have.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah, because it’s like, I heard that the sensors are so tiny. I burned about good thousand dollar worth sensors, trying to sort the wires into that. And I remember then I got help from the others. People who were like, literally actually engineers. And I’m like, can you help me to sort this? And then I was holding the wires for them to sort, and a lot of people. And then I had no idea how to do such small 3D printing. And then I got a friend to come in, I called him and I asked, can you spend a weekend with me and teach me how to 3D print on the form printer. And then I learned from him how to do the modeling and then send it to the printer, the printing all that. And then, so I literally learned from everyone who’s around. And like, I was like, if I had these in 2000, if I had all these resources, it would have been so awesome because everything is online. You can learn everything. Literally if you spend time on it, even the coding.

Tim Jordan: Even the coding. Yeah. So, you’ve put together a prototype that worked right. It would record your accurate blood oxygen levels. Right. But I know that there are other things that you had to put in this communication piece that had to be able to talk. It had to be a smart device, but what was the next step once you determined, Hey, this thing actually works. What was the next big step that you had to take to start refining this?

Shavini Fernando: So then not that what happens is, so initially actually I did it, like I said for myself, right? And then at Georgetown, they have this Leonsis family entrepreneurship prize. Until this, I had not thought about a startup at all. I did this just to prove my doctor that I can live alone.

Tim Jordan: So this wasn’t even a business plan. Now that you’ve created a prototype, you decided, Oh, this could actually be a business.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. So then only my maker space manager is like, normally they had it only for business school and they opened it to the whole campus. So he was like, okay, no one from the maker space is in Leonsis Prize. I’m nominating you. I have two hours to submit the application because they take applications for nominations. And then he was like, what’s your company name? I’m like, what do you mean? He’s like, what a name for this? So we wrote all the names and then I was like, it’s oxygen and it’s wearable. So, and oxygen is O2. Right. So, I said O2 Wear. So, that was the first name. So, when that reaches and okay, I’m putting it out O2 Wear. So that was about we submitted the application and then I preached, so 21st was that 28 was the Bark Tank. And then at the Bark Tank, I won the first prize and the People’s Choice vote again. So in total I got $40,500. So with that money, then what I did was I first start because I was international student. So until I finished studying, I couldn’t incorporate the company because I’m not allowed to work, but I was graduating that December. So I waited until December until then until I got my OPT. And then just as I got it, I wanted to like incorporate it, but then I didn’t know how to do it. So then next to Georgetown, there’s incubator called Halcyon, give it to NDC. So then I, from the people, so I talked to everyone, I made friends very easily. From the first pitch that judge who helped me, he introduced me to one of the current incubator people. And then I met them and I started going there, like making friends with them. Those I finished, I graduated. So they were still there and whatever, the way I can help them with my development skills and all, I have done all that. So I was hanging out with them. And then one of the cohort members, like one of the startup fellows, what they did was they introduced me to quit the law firm and then they got me in as a pro bono client.

Tim Jordan: Oh, nice. So let me back up for a second. So you just came up with a good idea. You landed in a position where you didn’t even think you were going to turn this into a business. You were able to pitch this in competitions where you raised prize money and then an incubator was able to connect you, which gives you a workspace and networks connected you to a law firm who took you on as a pro bono, basically free client, who I assume helped you with the business structure and all that stuff. Right?

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. So then they helped me to incorporate because they knew I can’t do it until I get OPT. Sure. So just as I got the OPT, I incorporated the company and then they started working with me on my, because before the team, what I was worried about is, okay, I need to get this whole concept and everything patent done, before I put it out. Yeah. So they helped me with the whole patent and we filed a provisional patent for the utility. And then you file design patents.

Tim Jordan: Yeah. And for those of you that don’t know, I’ll give you the brief rundown, a design patent and a utility patent are two very different things. A design patent is like a shape or a look like the old school, Coke bottles were designed patented, but the function of a glass bottle holding a Coke that wasn’t patented, that would have been utility. So by filing for utility, basically, they’re locking in the ability to make a wearable device on your ear that performs this function. And the design patent means nobody can knock off basically the aesthetics and the look of it. And a provisional patent is just a placeholder to get started. Right. So you filed for all three of these things, which is the best protection you can get.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. So then, we filed a provisional for all wireless monitoring down on the ear lobe and the communications around it.

Tim Jordan: So you’ve got a little bit of money. You’re getting a business founded, you’ve got some protection, but now you need to go to the next step. Right? The next step is refining the design, making sure everything works. And now I assume that in your journey, you had to enlist some pretty serious designers, right in some engineering. So give us like the high level of the next step. And let me ask you, this is the final version of this thing done yet?

Shavini Fernando: Yeah.

Tim Jordan: Okay. So you, so you have it finished. So how did you go from, all right, you’ve got patents, you’ve got a business now to finish product.

Shavini Fernando: So, what I said was, so then before it started at Halcyon, I wanted to get an engineer. That was my first project. I wanted to get an engineer who understands, because I knew what is needed and the logic behind me.

Tim Jordan: So you went through this process and I’m assuming you found an engineer.

Shavini Fernando: Yes. So then that tells you, I’m going, I got into the incubator. I met, through my other fellows in the cohort I got in. I introduced to my current CTO George, and then Ben who’s my product designer. Lead product designer. So by February, they did this.

Tim Jordan: Oh, nice. So for those of you that don’t see the video, this is like an amazing little device. It’s tiny, it’s sleek. It looks like something Apple would make. Right. And it comes in like a nice case. This thing is awesome. So wireless charge – kind of like the Air Pods, right? Like a wireless charging port. So you spent a year and a half coming up with this idea and then putting the team together. And as soon as you got the right people together, they whipped up an amazing finished product. Right. Which is a valuable lesson. One, hurry up and outsource as fast as you can. But also just because something starts slow, doesn’t mean it’s going to continue to be slow. Like it’s possible. This thing could ramp up very, very quickly. It kind of hit that inflection point.

Shavini Fernando: I actually got this done when I knew, okay, this is possible. Then I started looking for a developer and I hired a developer. My designer is based in San Francisco. And then at that time they had the startup buying global conference. So I took that chance flew to San Francisco because I wanted to raise money because we will using this 40,000 for all this work.

Tim Jordan: Yeah. So, let me back up and just recap this, tell me if this is correct. You haven’t really made any money on this thing. Right. But this is extremely expensive. So you’re hiring people. Yeah. You’re hiring people that probably are working for some sort of equity in this future business. I suspect. Right. Because you’re not paying these super high level folks, the $45,000, isn’t going to go very far, but you got that money from a contest. You’ve got basically scholarships through incubators. You’ve got people on your advisory board that are working for you, you’ve got employees that are working for equity. Like this is amazing. So now you’ve got this business that really isn’t worth anything because there’s no revenue, but you’ve got the finished product. Right. And you’ve done all of that, but now it’s time to hit it hard. And it’s time to actually grow this thing into a business. So what is kind of the next step in your journey from there? Like turning it into a business.

Shavini Fernando: The legal work and everything was really expensive. And they were like costing and then the hardware getting the stuff in and printing the prototypes. And they were so expensive because when you do one cosmetic prototype, it’s very expensive. You know how it is when you’re a female and raising money and it’s only no revenue. It’s hard, right. So we can’t show them the working model because on the Linux it works, but it’s not going to do the mobile application yet. So they can see the output. It was tough, like getting the term sheet because people are negotiating the price. Like the lawyers, everyone checked the value and send the – cap on the term sheets, everything. It was hard. And then, so it was November again. And then it was the next year, Bark Tank year. So the normal tradition needs the previous event winner has to MC leader. And then you need to say probably this whole year, what have you done? And with that money. So then I went for that page. I was emceeing and I told him everything we have done and that we have a team of three now, and this is where we are and everything I explained. And then I met again, I have been keeping him on loop of everything I was doing. He was so sweet. Like for that whole year, he has been super supportive to me and everything. So after the pitch competition, since he was there, I was meeting him face to face. I went and told him, I’m trying to raise money. It’s really hard. And I said, will you join as a board member? He said, I don’t have time for all this board member things, but I’ll join you on this advisory board. I’ll help you with advising. And you can write to me anytime and you can put my photograph on your website and you will get more investors coming in. I was like, okay.

Tim Jordan: That’s awesome.

Shavini Fernando: And the next month he said, he’s putting his personal money. And he invested. And then I started the friends and family from family. So then we started getting money and then I flew to San Francisco. So at the – so right in February, I flew just before the whole Corona thing started, I flew to San Francisco. Then I met my designer. And then because now we started, I had attended the startup to see what I can find some Silicon Valley investors. And then from there, like, so I met a Japanese investor. He, I literally spoke to him for six hours, two days, so 12 hours in total and then give us like, okay, send me the term sheets. I’ll be back in Tokyo in one week’s time. And then I’ll get the paperwork done and I get to invest. And I liked them because they were enlisting for the course. So I knew they are all on the same mission.

Tim Jordan: So you’ve got the final, kind of the final version of this thing designed, but you’re still not up and running yet. Correct? Because, well, you’ve got to raise more money and put these things into full production, correct?

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. And then the best part was it’s the partnerships we’ve made. I met Katie her brother, Michael Ledecky. He helped me with as an advisor now. And then through him, I got introduced to some coaches of US Olympics and something I learned from them is that even for athletes, they need it.

Tim Jordan: It’s not just somebody with a medical condition. It can be, for sports optimization and things like that, which is--

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. A performance reading for highly competitive training for those. They need it.

Tim Jordan: So let me ask you this. To kind of wrap up the story, you’ve got the final production round being finished. You’re raising money to go to full production. Then you’re going to take this thing to the market and with a medical device, there’s a lot of ways you can do that. You can sell them independently. You can sell them through medical professionals, things like that. But looking back at this journey, this has been long, like you’ve been working on this product for nearly two years now, right? Maybe more than that. What convinced you that this was such a good idea that it was worth continuing fighting to make it happen because this didn’t just happen overnight. This has been a serious endeavor. So, how were you convinced that it was worth doing?

Shavini Fernando: There were times I keep asking myself, are you crazy? What are you doing? Especially when my brain bank balance goes to zero and I have to call my dad for money. And because I had an offer from delight, I said, no to that, just as I graduated, I got an offer from Deloitte and I was, I could’ve got that job. Awesome package. And I said, no to that. And I started this and here I am, we just sometimes take note as balancing. And I keep asking, are you out of your mind? What are you doing? And especially like, when I can’t pay my team, I feel more burdened. And because people are depending on me to big responsibility. So, but then I get these emails and messages on social media from hypertension patients saying, thank you so much for doing this for us. And I can’t wait to have this device. I will be able to step out and do normal things. And without having to worry about oxygen and people reaching out and sending messages, and then, you know like you’re doing the right thing. And I’m like, it’s a struggle at the same aligning is just hang on, hang on.

Tim Jordan: It’s funny. As entrepreneurs, even like, you’re going around talking to venture capitalists and you’re raising money, you got pitched X. Most of the world assumes all entrepreneurs all have money. Oh, she’s invented this thing. She’s got a patent on this thing. It may be years before you get the first dollar from that. Right. And every time you, yeah. And every time that you bring a dollar in it turns right back out

Shavini Fernando: Yeah, the money comes in, especially because it’s hardware. We have to spend a good – it comes in, it goes back. It’s like just reflecting light.

Tim Jordan: Well, I think it’s interesting. You said there’s times when you have $10 in your bank account, that’s like one of the points that’s interesting is, folks that create a product that create a brand that create a company it’s not overnight, it’s not instant. And you have to put in the dues, you have to spend time practicing pitches. You have to spend time working on PowerPoint presentation. You have to spend time trying to learn to solder products. If you’re not an engineer. But it’s got to be worth it.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. Raising money. Now, I literally, I must have pitched to about 20 or 30 plus investors now and still like about me before I study investment.

Tim Jordan: So when does this thing actually going to hit the market now?

Shavini Fernando: So, we are going to two different ones. We are going as a consumer product and as a medical product, because we can go as a fitness and aviation, like fitness device, like normal Fitbit and everything. So we are planning to go out as a fitness device because we developed a performance monitoring dashboard by athletes. So market is not the athletic big client. Our market is who needs medical grade, most accurate oxygen readings and continues. So market is completely different. You’re not competing with them. You’re trying to get one day. So we will be doing, weighing out as a consumer product so that we can sell the devices to patients who can afford to purchase it and also to sell it to the teams. And we are currently testing the UI with the Washington wizards fitness coach. And you also connected us with the Boston Celtics and coach. So we want UI testing with them, and then, I mean, from your results, and we will do the beta testing on the device as well to help us. So we want to get the consumer one out. So at least then we will have some money.

Tim Jordan: So we’re still looking at a year away, probably.

Shavini Fernando: By June, we should be able to put out the consumers.

Tim Jordan: Six months, six months to launch.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. Six months. You just need to hang on. And then by parallelly, we are doing the FDA work. So we partner and then with them, they’re working on the five, 10K plus submissions and everything. And then finally we are working on the medical level. So because then, well, can’t afford it, can get it prescribed and get it. And plus the hospitals are interested in using it for the six minute walk test, and then also for pediatric use and to discharge patients for remote patient monitoring. So we are currently developing with the request we received from the hospitals remote patient monitoring application. So the revenue will actually come from those SAS models, the data licensing and the--

Tim Jordan: Oh, nice, that’s really cool.

Shavini Fernando: Because what I want, I started this to help patients. So I don’t want to tax the patients. So even me giving this in a way that they can afford. So it’s a one-time fee. They will have the device, but we can make money from the home by license. So that’s, and then, because my mission is saving lives. I started this, not for me to become a billionaire, but I know investors want to make money. So I need to figure out how to make money for them, but at the same time, save people and help them.

Tim Jordan: So it sounds like a win-win, you’re going to help people. You’re going to solve a problem that you struggled with all your life and still struggle with and hopefully make a lot of money doing it.

Shavini Fernando: Yeah. And then also like, one thing I have in mind is I want to do it formally to create like NGO branch called OxiCare under OxiWear, where people can actually donate a device for whoever. Like there’ll people like the medical expenses in US is I know how bad it is. So we’ll work on, afford it. Then someone can donate it. We can match. Like we do that, like really relearning. They go campaign with that related. So whoever doing is they’re doing, and then we match it and we connect and say, your donate device was donated to this, assigned to this patient, and then they receive it. So it’s like a matching thing. Someone can donate a device.

Tim Jordan: Let me just tell you, this is been one of the more interesting interviews that I’ve ever done just from your story and how this led into everything and kind of this medical issue from a child all the way to having to learn how to run a business, how to raise money, how to engineer, how to design, how to utilize resources. It’s been amazing. So for those of you that are interested to follow the rest of this path, as this thing goes to market, especially in the consumer line, the website is OxiWear. OxiWear. Make sure to check it out. They’ve got a really cool website up right now. And I’m sure as this thing goes to market, I myself will be looking at how the marketing is done, because I’m going to be extremely interested how this has done, especially with some big names like the NBA and people like that. So Shavini, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for sharing this. Hopefully this is inspirational because there’s so many people listening to this that have stories and they have purposes. They want to be able to help, uh, help people, or they want to be able to accomplish something. And they need to know that it’s not overnight, but it’s worth doing. Sometimes it seems like it takes forever. And sometimes you’re going to have $10 in your bank account. And sometimes you’ve got to figure out how to use resources that you’re not familiar with and just learn along the way. So I personally am inspired by this. I’m sure our listeners are too. So thank you very much for being on, and good luck with the rest of your fundraising and your launch later to 2021. All right, guys, we’ve wrapped up another episode now. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you for all the supports you give us. If you would drop a review in whatever podcast platform you’re listening to, drop us a thumbs up on YouTube, and we will see you guys on the next episode.